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Original poster

Expelled from Girlguiding for putting safeguarding first

369 replies

KatieAlcock · 04/08/2019 07:04

Many of you will remember that Helen Watts and another Guider were expelled from Girlguiding last year. This was me - in Sept 2018 I had my membership of Guiding withdrawn for social media breaches (one FB post in a small private group) and refusing to follow Girlguiding policies on transgender members (saying I'd put safeguarding first, ahead of any policies).
I'm a longstanding Guider and Mumsnetter (naice ham, cancel the cheque, show us the diagram) but I'm anonymous for obvious reasons, generally. I'm coming out now to tell you this story.

I appealed and the former Chief Guide who held the appeal concluded that I had not breached social media guidelines (I should jolly well hope not given that 9 people saw my post!) but that I was still refusing to follow GG policy (I gave the same statement - safeguarding comes first).

My story is in the Mail on Sunday today (if this link doesn't work I'll put a clicky link in the next post).

Mail on Sunday link

I am taking GG to court on the grounds that they have discriminated against me because of my gender critical beliefs by investigating my actions when other Guiders who complain about things are not investigated.
I am asking them for a small amount in damages because though I have not lost any income, I have lost reputation and the investigation was stressful, as you can understand.
And I've asked to be reinstated, and for a full apology and statement that I did nothing wrong.

PS... I spent an hour with their professional photographer telling me "don't smile" and they go with the photo from camp with a big grin on my face, taken by my Guide??!

[Post edited by MNHQ]

OP posts:
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Original poster
KatieAlcock · 04/08/2019 09:26

@LangCleg we do already take girls on mixed camps (with scouts) and we are already allowed to take condoms for girls over 13 but we KNOW the camps are mixed, and can be alert accordingly. And what's more, parents know.
Having a biological boy on a supposedly all girls camp, where nobody is allowed to know that, means you can't put all kinds of safeguarding in place.

OP posts:
popehilarious · 04/08/2019 09:25

I know they are discriminating against her beliefs but my point is can anything be treated as a belief system and be forced to "not discriminate" against? (Excuse mangled grammar.) I am not at all from a legal background so happy to be educated on this.

LangCleg · 04/08/2019 09:23

So in it's current state, my daughter can go to rainbows, brownies, guides, one of the other children or leaders could be a biological male but identifying as a female and I would not be informed?

A male to female leader would help my child toilet, change etc and I would not know?

YES!

All based on self-identification too. None of that pesky GRC business.

WhentheRabbitsWentWild · 04/08/2019 09:23

Never donated to things like this before

However, you are impressive, so when I am paid on Wednesday I will donate a little too.

LangCleg · 04/08/2019 09:20

Katie - thank you.

I will be sending things I can't mention to support you in the thing I can't mention and I hope you raise sufficient things we can't mention!

Important to remember, I think, the Stephen Whittle solution to sexual activity between minors in mixed sex guides overnight accommodation: ISSUE LEADERS WITH A SUPPLY OF EMERGENCY CONTRACEPTION.

Yes, parents of girls: that is what genderists think.

popehilarious · 04/08/2019 09:19

Re-reading your unmentionables, it does seem that your aim is to test GC belief in court, particularly as "Girlguiding are not supposed to exclude women who hold any other beliefs - religious, political" so fair play, i think you may have a difficult battle but it will be interesting to see the outcome of testing this.

SpaceDinosaur · 04/08/2019 09:19

Woah!!!

So in it's current state, my daughter can go to rainbows, brownies, guides, one of the other children or leaders could be a biological male but identifying as a female and I would not be informed?

A male to female leader would help my child toilet, change etc and I would not know?

I put her down for rainbows at 7 months because the waiting list is so long in our area and now I'm having doubts.

How the hell?

Heratnumber7 · 04/08/2019 09:17

Makes a mockery of this too

I promise that I will do my best, to be true to myself and develop my beliefs, to serve the Queen and my community, to help other people and to keep the Guide Law

minisoksmakehardwork · 04/08/2019 09:17

@popehilarious - they have discriminated against Katie for her beliefs. They encourage girls and young women to think about and develop their beliefs. But because Katie doesn't uphold the current narrative they are pedalling, that men can be women, they don't want her beliefs and ideas to be passed on.

Hypocritical much.

SimplySteveRedux · 04/08/2019 09:15

You have my huge admiration and respect Katie for fighting this. I shall donate, but will be rather small, sorry.

Aroundtheworldin80moves · 04/08/2019 09:11

Good luck from a Cub leader (and former Rainbow leader).
Ironic they expelled a leader for standing up for her feminist beliefs while introducing badges on Protesting and Rights.

popehilarious · 04/08/2019 09:11

Your defence seems to be built around 'discrimination against your beliefs' rather than, what I would have thought was more straightforward, wanting to uphold safeguarding, which has clear principles, above everything else?

I just worry that "beliefs" can be a fairly nebulous thing and could be compared to eg homophobic beliefs (obv not the same thing but it'll get brought up). GC is not a recognised religion so i would have thought this would be quite groundbreaking if it was judged to be as such?
(I've always had questions about what constitutes a religion/belief in Equality terms, eg someone who believes they are a witch etc, how much can their "beliefs" allow... But that's for another day I think!)

FamilyOhNo · 04/08/2019 09:09

Donated

Good luck 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

Heratnumber7 · 04/08/2019 09:08

I have commented on the KYP FB page and agree with you on absolutely everything, except this paragraph:

they have made it impossible for my 5 year old daughter to join - I am not allowed to accompany her to meetings, outings or residentials - when most parents do these things, in fact Rainbow groups (and new, shy Rainbows) rely on this

I will contribute later, when I have my bank details to hand.

I'm an ex Brownie Leader and District Commissioner, currently a Div Com. One of the reasons I resigned from running a unit was because I didn't want to be in a situation where I had to allow a male with a penis, but in a skirt to share showers, sleeping areas etc with my Brownies (or me, depending on his age) and not be able to tell the parents.

I'm not sure people realise that this means men can be Leaders too - and I've had to help a girl get dressed, or go to the toilet, more than once.

I'm hoping that as a Div Com I'll have more opportunities to chip away at the general complacency amongst some Leaders on this topic.

Good luck Katie.

Original poster
KatieAlcock · 04/08/2019 09:02

@Namechangeforthiscancershit some girls say "bye mum" the minute they step in the door, but my DD isn't one of those, and I've always relied - as a leader - on parent help. I've never been able to run a Rainbow unit without regular parent help, and I can't think of a residential I've run without a parent coming either.
We have an older DS who is in Scouting, and it's been the same for him - helping at meetings, and going along to outings and camps to make up numbers and to reassure him.

OP posts:
happydappy2 · 04/08/2019 09:02

Good luck with this, have donated. Safeguarding children trumps mens feelings every time.

MrsJamin · 04/08/2019 09:01

Supporting you. Thank you for being actually stunning and brave.

redexpat · 04/08/2019 08:56

Pledged. Ex Uk Guider.

HumberElla · 04/08/2019 08:56

Katie I wish you all the best for this and back you all the way. What a fantastic role model you are for girls, standing up for them and their rights.

Any children’s organisation that frankly and openly puts feelings before safeguarding and tells leaders they will be dismissed for not doing the same, should be publicly shamed and held to account.

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 04/08/2019 08:49

Thank you for taking on this fight x

Marshmarigoldssss · 04/08/2019 08:49

Thank you for raising this issue - I will donate.

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 04/08/2019 08:49

I’m a Brownie leader and I’ll donate

FormerMediocreMale · 04/08/2019 08:47

Thank you. Will read and do the unmentionable later when i get time.
Flowers

StealthPolarBear · 04/08/2019 08:46

It's people like you that will help overturn this madness, sooner rather than later I hope. Thank you for what you're doing.

Namechangeforthiscancershit · 04/08/2019 08:46

I absolutely agree with what you've said, and I don't blame you for want lung the protect your daughter (obviously) but I am a Rainbow leader and have no parents stay to meetings, come on outings etc and never have so she certainly wouldn't stick out round here. As I say though, having been treated as you have I'd be I two minds about sending her anyway.