If I'm a feminist but not radical or liberal, what am I?

threads here don't exist in a vacuum and if there have been quite a few about how to be a correct feminist seemingly with the aim of encouraging excessive division then you needn't be surprised or offended if your thread is seen in that context.

Ok I'll be really frank. I do find it irritating that certain, what you might call "fringe groups" of radical feminism are yolking the feminist leanings of mothers to serve their own political interests (trans- which I emphatically do not regard as the most important issue in feminism) when - having been involved up close with such groups- I know how they really feel about mothers.

I was not the one who thought it would be a good idea to divide women into mothers/non mothers, but I had this divide imposed upon me when I began to explore feminism. It feels exactly the same as when patriarchs put me in the mother box: not nice at all.

I think, by the way, that women who happen to be mothers ( because I've never thought of defining women in relation to whether or not they've given birth) are amongst the most vulnerable in society , and because of this, issues that affect such women are overlooked in feminism. They are the voiceless.

I think it's great that everybody has united to fight trans, I guess. But it is definitely at the neglect of other issues.

It's strange to suggest feminism should be a blanket term to encompass all women's opinions because women are just too different from each other

It's also not what has been suggested. I and others talked about feminism being a things that centres women. For the avoidance of doubt, I meant centres women with the aim of their liberation. That's not saying that feminism is any woman's opinion just because she is a woman.

It's strange to suggest feminism should be a blanket term to encompass all women's opinions because women are just too different from each other

And yet we’re all still women, different but still women. A definition for feminism is needed, and has always been there. We don’t need to label ourselves beyond that. That’s tribalism.

Yes, labels are very useful in context. No one is telling you to shut up, but threads here don't exist in a vacuum and if there have been quite a few about how to be a correct feminist seemingly with the aim of encouraging excessive division then you needn't be surprised or offended if your thread is seen in that context.

In terms of the usefulness of labels, I wouldn't think that you'd make your argument that "I'm a normal feminist, not a radical feminist" and that isn't what the responses here have been saying at all.

Personally I understand much of the rad fem position, and certainly prefer it to the broadly lib fem one. I am a number of other things myself - I am pro life, I am Catholic, I am a Doctor Who fan. Each of those labels often leads to all sorts of wrong assumptions about my views, which I then usually have to clarify, so while the labels can be useful shorthand to lead in to a conversation, they have their limits.

Basically, I don't really see why you can't approach things by saying you tend towards rad fem ideas, and when in conversation talk about the significance and importance of motherhood and all that involves, as part of the feminist movement. Tbh, aside from some of the extreme positions that have been mentioned on other threads, I've never seen overtly anti-natal feminism on Mumsnet, which is hardly surprising given the demographic.
But I read those threads that talked about it, and I found it interesting to consider the thinking, while I don't agree with it, and I didn't feel excluded because some feminists have those opinions.

Anyway, I posted as I did because of the afore mentioned context of a number of these threads, and also because I have read threads some time ago where women were very new to feminist thought and were feeling unnecessarily excluded because they didn't fit neatly into expected beliefs. So it wasn't to tell you to shut up, it was actually to reassure you.

I think it's really important to define precisely what is meant by feminism, and then to understand the different definitions of different types of feminism.

It's the belief that feminism can be any old thing, or "whatever you think it is" or "anyone can be a feminist" is what keeps getting it hijacked by men decade after decade.

Saying it's unimportant to have clear definitions is, to me, the same as saying women's politics shouldn't be taken as seriously as men's politics.

It's only if there are clear definitions , that you can know whether you agree or disagree with different feminist camps

It's strange to suggest feminism should be a blanket term to encompass all women's opinions because women are just too different from each other

But I don't agree with the rad fems who say all heterosexual relationships and motherhood are both, by nature harmful to women, and, ideally, best avoided.

I don't understand why you can hear that voice and not the ones saying this is not an accurate representation of radical feminism.
Radical feminism seeks to understand and change the structure that creates inequalities.

Liberal feminism seeks to create equality withing the existing structure, and many women believe that is doomed to failure. If equality were feasible we'd already have it.

If you don't want to use either label then you can call yourself a feminist, but it is a verb as much as it is a noun.

Feminism is for females. All of us. Woman, girl, mother, childless, lesbian, straight, of all religions and none

This. Irrespective of race, creed, beliefs, shapes, sizes, marital status, motherhood or not, disabilities, work status, economic status.

Feminists want true equality for women and girls. Where violence against us isn't disproportionately high, where casual sexism and sexual aggression isn't the norm for us or our daughters/mothers/sisters. Where pay is equal, where being a mother doesn't disadvantage us career and pension wise. Where women's safe spaces are just that, and where i know that my DD is less at risk than her brothers in the same situations.

Where worldwide women and girls can access medication, education, reproductive services, the job market, have the freedom to be who they are without fear.

That, to me, is feminism.

By fuck we're a long way off.

A feminism that doesn't support mothers is a movement that is dead within a generation. And is frankly, ridiculous. Who the hell would support a movement that expected human reproduction to stop because < reasons> and anticipated the imminent and purposeful extinction of humanity?
Bah.
Lots of shouty voices in this movement, and so there should be, but what is needed is for women not to cede ground or supremacy to the nuttier proponents; instead to centre feminism in realism.
Feminism is for females. All of us. Woman, girl, mother, childless, lesbian, straight, of all religions and none.

I don't really consider myself a radical feminist despite the central theme hitting the mark much more than liberal feminism.

I am a feminist though. And a mother.

It's quite sad that the biggest reason you need names for your beliefs are to explain to other women.

Divisions only help the ones trying to bring feminism down, not the feminists trying to achieve true equality.

Analysis is fine and necessary but when it hits the paralysis point it's useless. Continually asking what kind of feminist you are is really a distraction from being a feminist. I'm disturbed to see yet another of these threads and await to see who turns up.

Can’t help but notice we’ve had tons of threads like:

Can I have long fair and be a feminist?
Can I wear an engagement ring and be a feminist?
Can I be married to a man and be a feminist?

Now call me a cynic, but these threads all look like rather goady - rolling out some tired stereotypes about feminists, radical or otherwise, being short haired man hating lesbians.

I'm probably closest to socialist feminism but don't label myself because I take what's useful from everywhere and discard what isn't.

This is my stance on it too.

I'm a Mum, in a relationship with a man, who is happy to be both a Mum and with DP.

I am a feminist. No factions, no solidarity with anyone but women and girls who don't have anything like equality, and until we do I'll keep being a feminist.

If some women choose to exclude me because of that, fair enough. That's up to them, but they're not going to change my mind.

Feminism is needed, particularly now, given the open and blatant attack on women's rights.

Turning on each other is unhelpful.

matricentric feminism

I read this as mathematic feminism at first Sounds interesting!

I'd never heard of radical feminism before tf became a thing. I suppose personally, I see radical and liberal as strands of feminism rather than a label for feminists if that makes sense.

I'm a feminist.

I find some theories of radical feminism interesting, because I believe that whilst feminism has enabled women to be allowed to participate in a society set up for men, it's still essentially set up for men and I think taking a radical, from the root, approach could make society better for everyone.

Neither sexuality or having babies is inherently harmful. The way the patriarchy can weaponise them against women is.

^ This.

If you are interested in matricentric feminism, OP, try looking into Vanessa Olorenshaw.

Here's her book, Liberating Motherhood:

www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01LR7MO2Q?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

If it is true that there have been waves of feminism, then mothers’ rights are the flotsam left behind on the ocean surface of patriarchy. For all the talk of women’s liberation, when it is predicated on liberation from motherhood, it is no liberation at all. Under twenty-first century capitalism, the bonds of motherhood are being replaced with binds to the market within wage slavery and ruthless individualism. Mothers are in bondage – and not in a 50 Shades way.

Olorenshaw is clear: When mothering is on our terms, it can be liberating. The time has come for a radical, bold and creative approach to the question of mothers, children and care.

And here is Claire Shrugged, blogging about meeting her:

sisteroutrider.wordpress.com/2018/05/18/race-place-and-feminist-space/