Old lady.... why is this still an acceptable insult

What exactly is enriching or literary about using ‘old lady’ as shorthand for:
Ugly
Narrow minded
Reactionary
Set in their ways
Old fashioned
Nosey
Smelling of wee

All of which I have seen on Mumsnet.

Why are old people not allowed to protest about throwaway terms like "old biddy", "old dear" etc?

They (maybe it's 'we' now, for me) are allowed to protest about it. Insults based on stereotypes aren't 'acceptable'.

Absolutely. And I will give a tenner to Age Concern if anyone can come up with an example of where “old” was used in the description of a person in an entirely neutral (doesn’t even have to be positive) way as a descriptor.

My mother used to use very descriptive phrases about coloured people, which were totally acceptable in her day. Today they would be considered beyond shocking. No-one is sad about losing these , even though they were a form of "shorthand" .Today people are more circumspect and consider the messages which are sent by their words

Why are old people not allowed to protest about throwaway terms like "old biddy", "old dear" etc? There is an enormous amount of ageism on Mumsnet and it shouldn't be dismissed lightly. I find it hurtful and demeaning and I don't like being categorised because of my age. It's not my most important attribute!

The problem with stereotyping, in my opinion, is that you’re assigning attributes to someone, not on the basis of anything they’ve done or said, but because of the group they belong to. It stops you seeing the individual. And when those attributes are overwhelmingly negative, as is nearly always the case with old women, then that’s going to colour how you see them, how you expect them to behave and how you in turn behave towards them.*

Generalisations can be applied in an inappropriate way, one that is inaccurate or unkind, but they don't have to be. All kinds of groups have characteristics we can see, it's not more morally correct to pretend we don't. Older people are often frail in a particular way. People from a particular culture have a unique type of humour. Another group tends to be forthright and aggressive in their language.

If we assume that someone has these qualities simply because they are a member of a particular group, there is a good chance you'll be wrong. You can't make that assumption any more than you can with any other statistical probability and an individual.

But it's not necessarily the observations about groups themselves that are wrong. We can't help making them, in any case, it's part of pattern recognition and it's how we acquire knowledge.

You seem very keen to defend gender stereotyping though.

I'm keen not to get caught up in identity politics, or have people believe that bad thinking is caused by using words and can be eliminated by removing the word, and I am especially keen to avoid the idea that if people don't describe things we can somehow avoid their reality. And I'd like to retain the possibility of rich literary descriptions.

There can be some useful info from stereotyping people, as that’s why it’s done. And it can be quite accurate!

Lazy, often inaccurate, perpetuates inequalities and can be hurtful.

The problem with stereotyping, in my opinion, is that you’re assigning attributes to someone, not on the basis of anything they’ve done or said, but because of the group they belong to. It stops you seeing the individual. And when those attributes are overwhelmingly negative, as is nearly always the case with old women, then that’s going to colour how you see them, how you expect them to behave and how you in turn behave towards them.

I can’t quite believe I’m on a feminist board saying this but here we are.

Fair enough. You’re happy to be ageist.

Most of the time imo

“But sometimes descriptions like ‘old biddy’, ‘grumpy old man’ etc do set the scene. So it’s not always inappropriate to use these terms to explain a situation.”
When would it be appropriate?

There can be some useful info from stereotyping people, as that’s why it’s done. And it can be quite accurate!

If on the other hand, you read a description of someone that says they "drive like a grandmother" or something similar, is that pejorative? Maybe, maybe not, the context might tell us.

You are being spectacularly disingenuous to claim people use "drive like a grandmother" as anything other than an an insult.

That said, I think most stereotypes have the potential to be damaging. "Women are good at looking after kids" is a positive stereotype - but the result is still often damaging for women.

You seem very keen to defend gender stereotyping though.

I've spent a bit more time on twitter recently after a long break. I have noticed what seems to be a trend to write people off as "boomers". The context always seems to be "boomer" as an insult. I assume they're talking about baby-boomers.

Yes, we do need to examine our attitude towards age that's exactly the point. I find it profoundly irritating when people are insulting and then claim, with breathless naïveté "oh gosh I didn't mean fat/ugly/old in a negative way". If you're associating age and gender with negative characteristics, such as bad driving, then you need to consider the prejudices you're revealing.

But you aren't just examining it, you are saying that just by making the comparison or observation, by noticing, it's negative and a problem, always. Your assumption is that the comment is the origin of the problem and somehow the attitude will change if people don't say such things.

Sure maybe kids "pick out any quality that seems different if they want to insult someone" but if that quality was race or sexual orientation you'd correct them PDQ. Why not with age or gender?

Yes, the problem here is the kids are using these things as a slur, be it race or age or something else. It's unkind, and also often rude in other ways, when kids do this to each other, and they shouldn't. They should be corrected for all of them. But it's not that race, or the age, or round head shapes, that are offensive. It's the context.

If on the other hand, you read a description of someone that says they "drive like a grandmother" or something similar, is that pejorative? Maybe, maybe not, the context might tell us. We know what it means though, someone who seems to drive carefully, excessively so, it's very evocative. It's fairly common among very elderly people because their reaction times are slowed down, maybe their vision is not as good, they become very cautious about driving, or even walking sometimes.

It's an observable human phenomena we have all seen, and a situation we might all find ourselves in eventually. If it's being said about a young person, perhaps the implication is that they don't need to be so careful, they are being a worry wart. But it doesn't say anything about whether it's stupid for elderly people to be careful about their driving.

But sometimes descriptions like ‘old biddy’, ‘grumpy old man’ etc do set the scene. So it’s not always inappropriate to use these terms to explain a situation.

Mumsnet is awful for casual ageism- old woman, old biddy, grumpy old man-used all the time. And if posters are challenged, they say it’s just a descriptive word, they are just “setting the scene”

"Dad dancing" too - how frequently that is used?

But why shouldn't middle aged and upwards men dance (badly or otherwise) if they enjoy it?

I must admit I did hoik my drooping bosom to its pre-aged height when a young woke person of my acquaintance was joking about seeing sad old menopausal women dancing at a concert. I said I found it hurtful and offensive that she should be judging a group of people like that. She was a bit taken aback.

yeah, arguing with some tras/young 'feminists' on fb, they were v happy to call germaine greer - grumpy old woman, crone etc. disagree with her views?, fine, insult her using misogynist tropes? meh.

Unfortunately "old" is a pejorative word. Just as "new" isn't: we mostly like "new" things, from new babies, to new shoes, a new job, to new potatoes - they all mean something fresh and exciting.

Who wants to be old? I don't. And I am a fair way down the road. So it's probably someone like me being the most pejorative as I try on some shoes and think, "Gosh, no they're totally granny-ish," or if I'm enjoying Escape to the Country and exclaim, "Eeek! I'm already a pensioner!"

If being called old is seen as insulting, maybe we need to examine our attitude toward our elders?

I think that is exactly the point that many of us are making on this thread. Ageist slurs are obvious; "old bag," etc. But there are other ways that language reinforces negative stereotypes; one is referencing an older person's age in a negative context when it is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. And of course, using age and sex in combination as a negative comparison, as in "he drives like an old lady" delivers the double whammy of sexism and ageism.

I gave been told 'you sound young' on this board when someone didn't agree with my views. I'm not young, if that is relevant, but it does show ageism cuts both ways.