This is a good thread about female trans allies

So that's what I'm thinking gender dysphoria might be like.

I thought the discussion was about gender identity, not gender dysphoria. I thought gender (or sex) dysphoria was about someone perceiving their body as physically 'wrong'. Surely this is quite different from someone 'feeling like a woman/man', which is what gender identity seems to be about.

@Maniak many religious people claim to feel the presence of God and angels as support of why they believe in such concepts. As an atheist (and even when I was a Jehovah's witness) I have never felt such things. If that's what people want to believe in, that's fine.
However, if they started insisting that I and the rest of society have to change our definitions and laws and language, we have to give up or lose certain rights and protections that are in place for vulnerable members of society, that schools and universities have to teach these concepts as the truth, than any resistance or criticism to these concepts mean you are a heretic and should lose your job or livelihood, you have to alter your sexual orientation to accommodate such beliefs etc etc, then I have a big problem.

Those who have responded here have already said things like if they woke up in a man's body, they would still feel like a woman which implies that at least to them, gender identity is a spiritual notion of a soul that exists independently of the mind/body, physiology, biology and so on. It's something else. An essence that cannot be defined but only felt or experienced.

I'm quite happy to class such beliefs alongside every other spiritual and pseudoscience woo. I don't need to develop a belief in God or soul to understand the importance of not allowing some belief systems priority over others or over material reality.

@arnoldwhatshisknickers

Yes that makes sense. If there really are people with gender identity and people without, both kinds need to be catered for.

"So yes, I am happy to say the only trait I share with all other women from the Queen of England to a woman in some as yet uncontacted Amazonian tribe is my biology. To me that is joyous and is more than enough."

Our thoughts are also our biology and we all have ideas that are inviolable. For me an example would be my children. I am their mother, we have a connection. If society told me that they weren't and we didn't or we shouldn't, I would struggle to accept that. Because we do. So that's what I'm thinking gender dysphoria might be like. Something as strong as that. Or like falling in love. You know it's fucked up with one part of your mind (love I mean) but it is also so real and like fate.

If You don't have a sense of gender identity, how can you know what having one is like?

That's the problem, isn't it? Laws could be passed concerning 'gender identity', even though nobody can define what that is. Many of us not only don't have a gender identity, but we don't understand what it is like to experience having a gender identity. This doesn't seem like a good basis for changing legislation.

As NonnyMouse said, this is a religious-type belief system which is being forced on those of us who don't believe in it.

If it’s based on something real then are you saying people without innate gender identity are like people missing an arm?

Oo, interesting thought

Because you don’t answer Roses It’s quite astonishing that you can’t acknowledge that

And you don't even attempt to even try to see anyone else's point of view, you keep saying "don't understand" even when people are trying to explain to you.
That's also quite "astonishing."
At least Maniak is at least trying to engage with other experiences and viewpoints

How would you describe your gender identity or lack thereof to someone with quite different experiences?

I would compare it to religious versus atheistic people.

You have a sense of God, I do not.

You have a gender identity, I do not.

In a lot of ways I see similarities, some religious people just cannot seem to wrap their heads round the idea that others have no sense of God at all. Gender ideologists seem similarly incapable of wrapping their heads round the idea that many (most in my experience) people have no sense of gender identity.

Legislation needs to work for those who don't as much as those who do. That's why atheists are just as protected under the belief category as believers.

The same needs to apply to gender beliefs.

Seem s to me that gender identity is either something biologically real ( and therefore independently ( could be nuanced by externalities ) or some kind of belief system

If it’s based on something real then are you saying people without innate gender identity are like people missing an arm?

Define gender identity @Maniak or any one who thinks it’s real?

What are the characteristics of a male gender identity for example?

I don't expect ScottishJenn to come back, so can anyone else give a source on the claims that GC organisations are funded by the far-right and that the GC movement is infiltrated by misogynist 4chan trolls?

Because you don’t answer Roses

It’s quite astonishing that you can’t acknowledge that

Never mind, I’ll go back to scrolling past your posts and leave you alone

sounds like we're getting close!

what's a woman

Never-ending, circular, roundabout......

@NonnyMouse1337 "It's becoming apparent that gender identity ideology and transgenderism is a belief system that subscribes to the notion of an innate gender soul that exists independently of physiology and biology."

I don't think it's apparent at all? If You don't have a sense of gender identity, how can you know what having one is like?

Erm.......
woman

sounds like we're getting close!

what's a woman?

So all good and no don't know what being a male is like as a result

brilliant. so you know what being female is like?

what's it like?

Define what you're matching up to

Erm.......
woman

It's where your self imagine is out of line with what everyone else perceives and sees.

No, it's not a self imagine.
It's a female sense of self.
How are you supposed to even define it if some clearly don't have it?

I all "match up"

Define what you're matching up to.

@redtoothbrush "All this mental gymnastics fantasising about a different body is merely reinforcing this nonsense of a wrong body narrative."

I know i can't change bodies. I'm just trying to describe my (lack of) gender identity to someone who does have a sense of gender identity. How would you describe your gender identity or lack thereof to someone with quite different experiences?

Men are not being called prostrate-havers. They are still men. It is women, and only women, who are being dehumanised into etc.

And yes, no doubt some women are fine with it. But our humanity as a sex class is not theirs to give away.

in that case you must be really clear about what 'male' means because you know you're not

Yes, it's not female which is me
I all "match up"
So all good and no don't know what being a male is like as a result

How many lines do EU regulations devote to defining a protected product under law? For instance, milk chocolate or a Cornish pasty?

I can’t think how the EU could protect Cornish pasties if the definition included “ineffable other stuff” or “anything else that wraps itself in dough and chooses to call itself Cornish even if it’s shaped like a pretzel and comes from Bavaria.”

Surely women merit, in law, a definition that protects them as well as Cornish pasties are defined and protected.

Because people keep over and over saying "define" so people are trying to explain what it's like?

But its body dysphoria. Not fantasy.

It's where your self imagine is out of line with what everyone else perceives and sees.

You know... Like anorexia...

But no one uses that to describe what its like.

It's always the wrong body fantasy.

Why don't they use the analogy of anorexia? Is that for political reasons rather than descriptive reasons?

I'm not a male though

Great @RosesAndRaindrops , in that case you must be really clear about what 'male' means because you know you're not

I'd love to hear what 'male' means to you....?

It's becoming apparent that gender identity ideology and transgenderism is a belief system that subscribes to the notion of an innate gender soul that exists independently of physiology and biology.

As an atheist, I don't see why one type of faith gets to call the shots and demand changes in legislation and the complete language and restructuring of society over others.

Scientology thinks people have the souls of aliens that attach to them. We don't see society trying to legislate and accommodate such beliefs. People can believe what they want to, but when it comes to wider secular society, one's belief system cannot demand everyone else acquiesce to it.