may my mistress catching me in bed with her daughter

I like the Hunter s Thompsons version except that you know he never envisaged it being a woman who goes out in a blaze of glory
glory is for men, women are there to do the mundane things so that the men are free to get all the glory

it's the ridiculousness of a104 year old man who thinks he's so virile that he can seduce his mistresses daughter, and furthermore that this would drive his mistress into such a rage that she would kill him, the very idea that such a great effort would be required to kill such an elderly man, and that this elderly man is seen as such a sex symbol that she is compelled to keep his penis after his death

It's a brilliant poem and you're overthinking! It was written in the 60s so a completely different time with a different view on life. Not saying I agree with that view but it's important context.

It is absolutely not written for children though!

Oh and no-one seems to have picked up on the "and fearing for her son" comment. Is it only (imaginary) girls who must be protected from ageing poets?

I'm also inclined to draw your attention to the fact that he wishes his mistress to "throw away every piece but one ". Why aren't we furious about this woman committing necrophilia?

I like Hunter S Thompson's take - it's just a bit shorter

“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow!"

You would think wouldn't you. But then again, this thread has challenged a lot of my assumptions about other people's experience of poetry.

*ward death off, that is.

The whole Western literature canon is basically hung on a Christian framework that sees humans as being caught helplessly "halfway between the angels and the apes" - we have the capacity to follow our better natures and be truly noble but also be hamstrung by our baser desires. It's an old, old metaphor to fear "joining the angels" on death and thus to cling to the desires of the apes to try to ward death odd.

And as lass rightly says, poems like Marvell's "To his coy Mistress" are of the same nature - staving off death with sex.

This rather like decrying Jenny Joseph for wanting to steal stuff and spit when she is old
I think they are both deliberately using hyperbole, not writing literally

That comparison is so obvious it's almost, but obviously not entirely, unnecessary to point out.

To be clear I was replying to butteryellow, not Cressida and Barbarian.

This rather like decrying Jenny Joseph for wanting to steal stuff and spit when she is old.
I think they are both deliberately using hyperbole, not writing literally.

Why are you referring to rape? There's not the slightest suggestion of rape.

So far as the reference to "mistress" I didn't read that in the sense of "cheating on a wife" mistress which the OP did but in an archaic, poetic sense.

Even without knowing the full poem it me think of Marvell and his coy mistress or Donne and his mistress going to bed where mistress simply meant any relationship outside marriage even where the parties are single. I'd bet good money that as a poet McGough intended it to reference Marvell and Donne.

You are missing the point of the poem if you think it needs such a literal analysis.

Some of you must really struggle when reading no els.

...seriously?

First of all, as PP have pointed out, the narrator of a poem and a poet are not the selfsame being.

Secondly, it's essentially a funnier, more self-parodic version of Dylan Thomas's "Do Not Go Gentle", with some Classics drama thrown in for good measure as a PP noted. It's about snatching as much from life as you can and refusing to accept decay and loss. Human beings have equated living with vice for practically as long as they've been around.

I get that it's a poem with silly extremes, but it does bear thinking about I think.

A little like the 'if you no-one would ever know, and you'd never get caught, would you rape someone' question that so many men answered yes to. It's completely forgetting that there's a woman there being raped, a woman there being betrayed, a woman there being used as a prop in the poem.

I'm not condemning the poet, but it's a clear symptom of society that that's one of his examples.

I mean, I'm also not crazy about the poor driver of the red sportscar being implicated. If I were discussing this poem with my kids, I would raise it as something to talk about the morality of.

And I know I sound like a humourless person here, taking a silly poem too seriously, but it is a poem, it is meant to be thought about, talked about, considered. It is OK to do that, and still see the humour in the poem.

I’m thinking of Robert Browning’s ‘Porphyria’s Lover’ which is written from the point of view of a nasty character who has just murdered his lover. I don’t think Browning was an actual sadistic murderer himself

My Last Duchess is brilliant too.

Yes. Get a grip!

😀

Blimey. People are so .. snowflakey .. these days. It's a poem!!

He just imagining he was wants to bow out with a bang not a whimper. Live young die fast and all that.

I grow old I grow old I shall wear the bottom of my trousers rolled...

So i realise that i judge a man on his ability to value his wife

I do that too.
It really impresses me, I suspect it does for others too.
Not that would ever be acknowledged anywhere.

I don’t find the ‘daughter’ bit telling.
Well, apart from the fact it tells me it’s alluding to Classical Greek myths, where the characters are always having sex with the mothers, sons, daughters, etc. in caverns and then being chopped into a thousand pieces or some other horrible death.
Poems don’t reflect the view of the poet necessarily. The poet is often not the main character or narrator. I’m thinking of Robert Browning’s ‘Porphyria’s Lover’ which is written from the point of view of a nasty character who has just murdered his lover. I don’t think Browning was an actual sadistic murderer himself.

Fancy railing against a slow lingering death and declining faculties.

The daughter in question is probably a pensioner - I imagine she can pick her own sexual partners.

SofaSoConfused

He probably didn't want to get run down by a red sports car either

Am I the only poster feeling a bit thick at not picking up the reference?

Although in my defence even without the rest of the poem the lines quoted were obviously not meant to be taken seriously.

I've seen Roger McGough a few times and he seems quite gentle and self-deprecating. I'm not quite sure it works quite as well with the sexes reversed, but I can imagine some women saying it. He's been in a long term marriage too.

I went to an event a while ago which was held by a self made multi millionare and included his family. I remember being deeply impressed by him, but couldn't work out why. It then occurred to me that it was because he was clearly with his 'original' wife. That becoming a multi millionare didn't mean he could be a total twat and 'upgrade' as he clearly regarded his wife to be pretty amazing. So i realise that i judge a man on his ability to value his wife.

Lass, I thought that too about John Major, and the others. Too many to mention.

I am always disappointed by the behaviour of these men and feel for their wives and family having to put up with the fall out.

As a nonsense poem, the daughter bit is telling.

Thanks Bespin, the context changes it completely.

I am as culturally conditioned as anyone else, so otherwise dull men seem more interesting if they have a mistress. I am thinking of the effect John Major's affair with Edwina Currie had on his reputation, or Hugh Grant getting arrested when with Divine Brown

What an odd reaction. My reaction to both of them was disappointment that men who had previously seemed decent and reliable had such feet of clay.

John and Norma Major seemed to have such a strong marriage. Major's usp was his quiet integrity. The revelation lessened him in my eyes, not made him interesting.

Same with Hugh Grant. Grant was supposed to be a gentleman.

What they did lessened them, not made them more interesting.