Are feminists getting played?

And yes as an aside, I've noticed how women are expected to be better in the home by going plastic free while the bloody men who own the companies that make the products, as well as the government who could easily regulate these companies if it wanted to, are let off the hook

I agree genderism is imortant, I just don't think it merits the energy and attention it has been given. But then women's energy is finite. And like I say, trans is something to grasp and possibly even do something about.

Where do you even begin with nuclear disarmament, or basically men blowing people up here there and everywhere? Or the male CEOs and male governments who are fully responsible for the plastic in the sea problem. Or the male- run, male- organized international food supply chain that is so inefficient that it depends on the increasingly exploited women in the third world. It is an unsustainable food system.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving:

"And what we're saying is "it's a fucking dragon, just pick a bit and start fighting!""

Brilliant, exactly!

Possibly, sakura. Environmental issues could certainly be an existential threat, undoubtedly. Btw, that's another discussion we've managed to have on FWR - some really interesting conversations about green issues and the burden which disproportionately falls on women in those issues.

But I think in terms of retaining rights, Genderism, by which I mean the broad sweep of what our cultures expect women to be, which includes the madness of the trans movement but is not confined to it, drives a great big juggernaut over what has actually been achieved in recent decades.

I'm not sure I do agree that genderism is the biggest threat.

I think the biggest threat is what they have done and continue to do to the environment, as well as what they have done and continue to do to the food supply chain system.

Maybe it's just simply a case of it being that trans affects all women, whereas other issues only affect some women. That must be it I suppose.

Then again there are so many other issues that affect all women, like what men are doing to the environment, to our food and so on. But to take on men on these issues is very overwhelming. Like try explaining to the women who support Extinction Rebellion that the problem is patriarchy, always has been. Watch the blind fury as you dare point the finger at the precious men... When who the hell else has been in charge and in power while the world turned to shit

I don't visit FWR much now; my life is very busy with the mundane, and much of my activism and feminist conversation happens in other places. I contribute, as I have always done, to threads in which I have something to say because of my specific life experience as a woman - so, sexuality stuff, 'gender confusion' in children, abortion, religiously motivated misogyny, rape and male violence.

If I had not been galvanized by one of my children being drawn into the cult of trans, I likely would have bumbled along in the same vaguely unhappy ignorance, putting up with the way things are.

So, to me, the fight for women to retain our language and the rights hard won is part and parcel of my desire to centre women in my politics and energy. As it so happens, I agree with the analysis that the Genderism is one of the most dangerous threats women, and the trans cult is a powerful wedge part of that.

And, as I am an intelligent woman, I am perfectly capable of having a number of different concerns running concurrently.

Sakura184 Maybe you should try searching for topics you're interested in or even starting a thread, before complaining no one is paying attention?

No I'm not talking about mumsnet. Im talking about the entire women's liberation movement. 90% of the focus seems to be in trans and then 10% on porn.

I have started threads on various topics. ( As an aside, I got a LOT of namalting )

What I think the problem is, is that patriarchy is just too overwhelming, and we are just too powerless, and so this keeps us all focused on something we might be able to change. But the fact that men are just watching us dance about to their tune is just a measure of their hatred of us.

"it's a fucking dragon, just pick a bit and start fighting!"
Perfect.
And genius.

Absolutely 2BthatUnnoticed I've seen enough TRAs refer to their penis as a clitoris, their surgical fistula as a vagina, or claim to have periods etc. If we call ourselves cervix havers, they'll start insisting the prostate is really a cervix or something mental. It will never end. We have to stand our ground from the start.

one way would just be to roll over on the semantic stuff, and just be womb-bearers or whatever.

What the hell? Since when has feminism been about “rolling over?”

Since when do feminists give male-born people want they want at women’s expense?

Appeasement will not work. If libfems adopt “womb-bearer,” XTRAs will start campaigning for their wombs... so they can be “womb-bearers” too.

Then the word “womb-bearers” will become transphobic - don’t assume what is in my abdomen! Why are you t*rfs so abdominally obsessed?

It is not semantic. It is about erasing our existence as a sex class.

literally nobody is paying attention to it

F4J get a lot of mentions on here just try searching you can't find any?

WRT surrogacy, just last week there were about five threads running on the subject. Prostitution gets a lot of threads.

Sakura184 Maybe you should try searching for topics you're interested in or even starting a thread, before complaining no one is paying attention?

I'm not really bothered about the GC movement putting off women. Like I'm not bothered that manhating might put off women.

We can't redefine feminism to make it nicer; that's caused problems for us before , where we had to make feminism nice enough for men to be on board with it which turned into a neoliberalist disaster.

And women are totally correct that because trans is at heart a class war against women, many aspects of women's lives are being affected (sports, prisons etc) . Trans is nothing more than a men's rights movement.

And yet... and yet feminism is about much more than how trans affects us. For example I think mothers are taking a massive hit in the family courts because of fathers rights activists and literally nobody is paying attention to it.

I insist that anyone who is critical understands that this is about class : men against women. So namalt arguments don't apply.

I have honestly never seen anyone say NAMALT on this board without getting gunned down immediately by a dozen other posters. And pretty much every regular poster here is very clear about the need for class analysis. FWR was where I learnt what class analysis even is. So I don't really know where you're finding this problem.

I think she's wondering if maybe we could get on with talking about other things at the same time as dealing with it.

She's more than welcome to start a thread about an issue and we can discuss it. I don't get this constant hand wringing over other people not starting certain threads. Just start a thread ffs.

Another man who has competed as a woman successfully is Rachel McKinnon (I'm not sure what his original name was).

Rhys. His name was Rhys.

I agree OP. I think it's a huge shame that feminist discussion is dominated by one issue to such an extent. Yes it's an important issue, but it's not the only issue. There are imho plenty of issues that impact more women more significantly.

MN has become a bit of a GC echo chamber. I think it's worth remembering how off putting many, particularly young, women find the rhetoric about trans individuals that has become common here. I think the GC movement risks putting lots of young women off "fighting the dragon" at all.

it's a fucking dragon, just pick a bit and start fighting

:) :)

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving loved your post and couldn't agree more. I think there is a huge amount of cross-over with the push from the TRAs around language and the language used in promoting surrogacy. I suspect you're right that the venn diagram of people pushing this shit is a circle.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving

I don't think the OP is disputing the importance and validity of the language issue. And I'm certainly not saying trans is single issue politics. That's why I insist that anyone who is critical understands that this is about class : men against women. So namalt arguments don't apply.

I think she's wondering if maybe we could get on with talking about other things at the same time as dealing with it.

OP you talk about the surge in support for things like trans, porn, surrogacy, prostitution etc as if they're separate things. They aren't. Do you really think it's a coincidence that we have language like "uterus havers" being normalised at the exact same time the American right are calling women "host bodies" during the abortion debates, or surrogacy campaigners are referring to women as "carriers"? It's all coming from the same place, the corruption of language to dehumanise women to make us easier to abuse and control. You can't address one of these issues without encountering the others because the venn diagram of people pushing this shit is a circle.

What you're saying is "why are you spending so much time putting out fires when there's a big tail thrashing around over there, and that big thing with claws on it is squashing people?" And what we're saying is "it's a fucking dragon, just pick a bit and start fighting!"

*In my view, there is nothing "gross" about focusing on the rights feminists have so far achieved for all women. There is nothing "gross" about such a preoccupation to defend those hard won rights and in so doing, honouring our fore-sisters who secured those rights for us.

Feminists are not preoccupied with men who claim to be women, they are preoccupied with the obvious threat to women's rights that such men impose and with a complete disregard for our consent.*

No I'm saying what men are doing to us is gross, sorry if that wasn't clear. I'm saying they hatred of us is now very finely tuned so that we are dealing with a mind fuck of the highest order. I didn't mean women defending themselves against it is gross. I should pay attention and write more clearly, I'm in the toilets in work.

And I didn't say feminists are preoccupied with transwomen. I'm saying that the issue has dominated the women's movement and is completely wasting women's time as it is intended to

"Some men are trying to redefine woman. Why should we let them do that?"

It's not just men. A lot of women and feminists are on board with trans ideology.

I said that some men are trying to redefine the meaning of woman. Do you dispute that this comes from men? I'm aware that some women are going along with this, but I don't believe that the original idea of redefining the word "woman" actually came from women. The fact that some women have been duped into thinking it doesn't matter, or even that it would be a good thing is immaterial. The idea to redefine "woman" came from men.

I just feel what the OP is saying, about trans having served it's purpose of completely making the women's movement preoccupied with it. That's what I think is so gross, in particular, about this issue.

In my view, there is nothing "gross" about focusing on the rights feminists have so far achieved for all women. There is nothing "gross" about such a preoccupation to defend those hard won rights and in so doing, honouring our fore-sisters who secured those rights for us.

Feminists are not preoccupied with men who claim to be women, they are preoccupied with the obvious threat to women's rights that such men impose and with a complete disregard for our consent.

So by working, I meant trans prisoners now having a dedicated trans wing. The GRA result announcement being kicked into the long grass. Scotland backtracking. The sports issue coming to the fore and being headlined. The Tavistock being held to account for their administering of puberty blockers.

That is impressive on the trans issue. I think it's probably always been the case that different women have focused on different areas in feminism, and gone about it in different ways.

And it's also the case that some women are liberal feminists ( and perhaps focus on laws ) while other women are radical and do other, different, kinds of organizing, gathering, writing. And some are in between the two and do a bit of both.

I just feel what the OP is saying, about trans having served it's purpose of completely making the women's movement preoccupied with it. That's what I think is so gross, in particular, about this issue.

Unless you understand what crawls out when you lift up the stone, you're not going to appreciate the implications of the laws.*

Yes it is right that women discuss all the utterly weird things that they are doing. I'm surprised men aren't dying of embarrassment from it all.

And then some behave as though this particular group don't have anything to do with them. Erm No, they're yours, not ours. Collect them please

Naming 'woman' and it meaning something concrete in a material & real way is just fundamental to all woman have achieved & hope to achieve.

Even if I thought 'well, yeah - we've lost the word woman & what it meant as we knew it - so let's fight other battles'. I absolutely do not have the right to do that to my daughter, mother,sisters or indeed any other woman on the planet.

So I'm gonna stay & fight for my word.

There are still toilets pretty much everywhere. We can still use them.

With less of a sense of safety than before. Which will eventually lead to not using them. Which will lead to women not going out of the house, quitting work, etc because they can't hold it in for long enough, or are menstruating and need to change pads too often to go out.

Single-sex toilets were fought for by our female forebears so that we could exist in public spaces. We really must not lose sight of that.