Are feminists getting played?

"FWR only talks about trans. Why dont you talk about X, Y and Z?"

"We do."

"Nah, you don't. You just talk about trans. It's not that important. Talk about F, G, and H."

"We do."

*repeat to fade.

And always left with the feeling that it's less about why don't you talk of this and this, and more why don't you stop talking about that.

I've often read on here that to achieve equality things must necessarily get worse for some men as they currently have privilege which they may have to sacrifice. Some would argue that's the situation we're looking at here.

Feminism is sadly no longer the saveur du jour, and many of the woke purple haired sjw types have now seemingly jumped onto the transwagon as it's new and exciting and offers much more opportunity for language policing etc (the feminist campaign to ban the word 'bossy' never met the same success as the trans alternative which is literally getting people arrested and fired for using the wrong words).

I know this will tilt your wheels, but things actually happen off the internet.

And no, MN is not the only place you can discuss this. You face difficulties discussing it in other places online, but I am seeing more and more conversations popping up on Facebook and grassroots campaigning that was springboarded here is having an impact now that wouldn't have been possible a couple of years ago, and that is due to the persistence and determination of a lot of women, some of whom post here, some of whom do not for various reasons.

How many times does it have to be said that many the women here (Not including Lass, who clearly popped into existence as righteously motivated against certain thing and has never needed to be shown enlightenment) have come here curious about the eye catching current topic, and gone on the engage with women's rights more broadly.

Self ID is not the only topic here. It's current, so you could expect to see many threads as more and more women begin to become aware, but that is not the same thing.

Anyway, this thread looks like it might start going in circles soon, so I might depart from another round of

"FWR only talks about trans. Why dont you talk about X, Y and Z?"

"We do."

"Nah, you don't. You just talk about trans. It's not that important. Talk about F, G, and H."

"We do."

*repeat to fade.

Have you read the latest 'lurkers' thread.

I know. Bless those lurkers. And that's what, the third thread in a year just like that?

They just keep on coming.

I just don't think that's true.

Based on what? Your feels?

Have you read the latest 'lurkers' thread.

I just don't think that's true. MN is virtually the only space on the internet where GC discussion is permitted. It attracts very specific people and that gives a totally misleading impression of how most women and most feminists feel

It's the only place on the Internet where public gender critical discussion is permitted.

In the last couple of years I have seen dozens and dozens of groups spring up, elsewhere. Covertly. With thousands of members.

The issue is absolutely not confined to mumsnet. This is the only public place.

If we live in a patriarchy and men can legally be women, women are fucked.

Not immediately. But eventually.

Patriarchy won't stop it. Patriarchy is responsible for it.

And political representation is just about the most important part.

It won't matter a fuck if women have the vote, if there are no women in power to vote for.

Because, although this board make give that impression, it's actually drawing hundreds more women towards feminism in general.

I just don't think that's true. MN is virtually the only space on the internet where GC discussion is permitted. It attracts very specific people and that gives a totally misleading impression of how most women and most feminists feel.

I agree with OP that the momentum of the MeToo movement seems to have been lost in the UK and I think that's a real opportunity we've ceded.

Suppose trans advocates get the upper hand. What happens? Again, almost nothing to men.

Correct, almost nothing.

Except places woman's places on AWS, womens awards, access to shelters, wards, prisons, sports podiums, ability to re-write women's history, women's health allowance, our words, experience, places.

So yeah, almost nothing because only a few men will colonise the above. Small numbers in the scheme of things.

Lass I've never really liked porn and I don't use porn now. But I did when younger use porn with boyfriends because I was a 'cool girlfriend'. I saw some feminist issue in more blatant ways like inequality, and sexism, and discrimination.
But porn, meh.

I only peripherally know some trans people. They don't, in and of themselves, impact on my life.

But I very clearly, and very quickly saw the danger in TRA policy.
How that would just underscore and imbed everything I understood about inequality, and sexism, and discrimination. It was an easy lesson.

Now I've spent time here, porn, prostitution, general female healthcare, pre and ante natal care, access to services, funds, etc. I now see from a more feminist point of view, and the damage it causes women, as a whole. Because what this board has also reminded of emphatically is it's not all about childless 'me' in my safe, white, middle class, first world, comfort.

Lass, I guess people arrive at this on different trains. Or, perhaps in your case, on only some of it.

My point was that it's a mistake to think the trans issue is dominating feminism. Because, although this board make give that impression, it's actually drawing hundreds more women towards feminism in general.

I agree with Datun. I came here on mumsnet through AIBU, then onto FWR and learned about the self id proposals. Then learned about class and what feminism actually can be. And that was it. I now also fight against commercial surrogacy, against sex work and have started donating to womens refuge organisations again.

I've had my eyes opened about the realities of prostitution, pornography, abortion denial

I find it extraordinary that anyone could have been unaware of these problems until trans issues opened their eyes. These are issues I have felt strongly about, have signed petitions about, have discussed, have tried to alter other people's opinion about for the last 30 years.

This is simply my personal experience but there seem to be vastly more problematic trans people on the internet than in real life.

I live in a medium sized city, I go on holiday mainly on European city breaks and am in London maybe once a month. I haven't once come across a trans woman in a women's toilet. Maybe there was and I simply didn't notice.

I read what is written on here and think where do posters live that they seem to come across so many trans people? I sit on crowded tube trains and there's not a single obvious trans person. I sit in crowded concert halls, ditto. I feel embarrassed and a bit mad even looking for obvious trans people, but such is the effect of MN. I'm not seeing something which according to MN is commonplace.

Furthermore, although there are lots of public meetings, now (WPUK, fair play for women, Posie and Venice, etc) about the trans ideology, many of those meetings are about other feminist issues.

The women talk about male violence, the freedom program, provision for women in the workplace, women's sport, prisons, prostitution.

Revered and experienced feminists stand up and talk about issues close to their heart.

And these meetings are absolutely rammed. Local pubs can't keep up with the stream of bolshy, outraged women who congregate there afterwards. Talking, laughing and motivating each other.

You're welcome GirlDownUnder. It's quite true. And I could give loads of examples.

And Datun thank you for that post, it articulates so much for me

I'm not sure people understand quite how many women are coming into feminism on the back of all this.

Misogyny, postnatal healthcare, a world designed for men, the objectification of women, porn, prostitution, all of it is now being assessed by women on the back of the trans issue.

I am one.

This forum had changed how I think, see, and interact with the world. A paradigm shift. And I am now active in the ways I can be, in more areas.

And what we're saying is "it's a fucking dragon, just pick a bit and start fighting!

Yes. 🐉

I'm not sure people understand quite how many women are coming into feminism on the back of all this.

Misogyny, postnatal healthcare, a world designed for men, the objectification of women, porn, prostitution, all of it is now being assessed by women on the back of the trans issue.

I have signed petitions or given money over free speech, the police handling of women, women being fired, all women shortlists.

I've had my eyes opened about the realities of prostitution, pornography, abortion denial, and generally how we are living under the heel of a patriarchy.

If you are a lifelong feminist, coming into this, it might seem one-sided.

If you're not, and most of the women who are arriving aren't, then feminism is now being accessed by thousands more women. The entry is trans. But the education and enlightenment is going far further.

You obviously haven't listened to the, quite literally, thousands of women who say they now see the world through totally different eyes.

That's because of the trans issue - it's a microcosm that reflects the wider world. And more and more women are showing up to take a look.

Let me illustrate my point- maternity care is shit. Particularly post-natally.

That's an undeniably feminist issue. How many threads are there about it on the feminism board?

There is nothing to stop you starting a thread about this for yourself.

there are so many other issues affecting women daily and more structurally ingrained in society than this.

Then off you pop and go and get to work on those other issues.

Personally, I'll carry on working on this issue until all children and women have full protection from sex self-ID and its appalling implications.

You are so right OP. Yes I agree that “step outside and I’ll show you sir” shouldn’t be in our spaces but there are so many other issues affecting women daily and more structurally engrained in society than this.

If the trans agenda progresses further, it won’t just be a question of sexism and misogyny being engrained in society. Instead regressive gender stereotypes will literally be enshrined in law. What does “living as a woman” even mean? It’s mind-boggling that we should have laws that overwrite the material reality of womanhood with the performance of it (in some cases, for sexual gratification).