Are feminists getting played?

LordRudolphVII

Why do you have this expectation that women should take on men's issues? Why do you have this expectation that women should make space for men?

That in itself is an expression of patriarchy: that women only exist to serve the desires of men.

You men need to sort out and challenge the patriarchy for yourselves, perhaps?

any case, it's the moderators who should make the call and in this case they seemed happy for the thread to stand

Even i know MN doesnt work that way...

until the reports started flooding in, at which point they closed it to investigate

...thats how it works.

Because I think it's odd to be disappointed that you've failed to drive (another) woman away from discussing feminist issues here.

Men don't discuss these issues like women do and it certainly wouldn't be a bad thing if more men understood and fought against the oppressive elements of out society which affect both sexes.

So, create your own Dadsnet?

Men's issues are not women's issues.

Lord are you actually proposing the women also take on mens rights in their womens rights forum?

That they do the mens work too?

I should have added to my last post above that 'woman' here is defined in accord with the UK Equality Act 2010:

woman is a female [as in natural sex] of any age.

Dunno, it'd make an awesome soundtrack to Blondie?!¿

Why you asking??

I'm (secretly) disappointed there's no flounce.

Why?

But many men are slaves to the patriarchy in some way too - look at the number of male suicides each week, undoubtedly influenced by the 'boys don't cry' mentality.

Men don't discuss these issues like women do and it certainly wouldn't be a bad thing if more men understood and fought against the oppressive elements of out society which affect both sexes.

In any case, it's the moderators who should make the call and in this case they seemed happy for the thread to stand until the reports started flooding in, at which point they closed it to investigate.

We all know why said posters rallied to get it removed, and it wasn't through an altruistic desire to assist the mumsnet moderation team.

Some men fail to grasp that feminism is, in part, about rejecting male domination of the discourse ... and when it comes to Women's Rights men have absolutely no place in any such discourse.

Feminism and Women's Rights [aka FWR] are about the experiences and voices of women.

The thread was never reinstated and the debate was successfully shut down

Perhaps because the facial and body hair of men is not a Women's Rights issue?

Lord chap, honestly

It started with the same old posters from this very thread

Start your own thread. In any forum. On any board. Be it about tea, or hirsute people, or bic

I'm sure we'll flock!

Do link here when you're ready

PS we no longer faint at KF so if you want to go there....

Mens hair issues? Is that a feminist thing?

Thank you, yes, definitely this:

In my view, the contribution of all women in defence of Women's Rights is valuable

A good example of this 'shutting down of debate' was the thread a few days back about whether the societal pressure on men to either be clean shaven or neatly bearded (but definitely not sporting 'natural' growth) is comparable to women facing societal pressure to shave their legs/armpits.

It started with the same old posters from this very thread requesting that it be moved to chat as it "wasn't relevant". Upon receiving pushback to this demand on the basis that this is the main sub forum where societal expectations of body hair are discussed, they then reported it en masse until mumsnet took it down 'while we investigate as we've received a few reports.'

The thread was never reinstated and the debate was successfully shut down.

Why is there a divide here?

I don't think there is a divide, for most of the women here. There are some who want to fabricate a 'divide' for whatever nefarious purpose.

Most women here declare themselves as feminist ... I declare myself as a radical feminist ... and there are some women here who would not take that label for themselves.

In my view, the contribution of all women in defence of Women's Rights is valuable.

Issues relating to Women's Rights necessarily exclude all men, regardless of how they choose to present themselves.

Any woman who is unable to defend the Rights that our fore-sisters fought and earned for us today without including men in their activism is highly suspect, in my opinion.

[Some men also defend Women's Rights and know that this place here is not the forum for them to express that support. And such men certainly do not demand to dominate the discourse.]

But when it's accompanied by a 'oh not this again, don't we know better than this' attitude where you can pretty much see the eye-roll I'm a little disappointed that the poster doesn't consider getting the feminist messages across as being more important than displaying their rank.

I would very much hope that this is a relatively rare experience here and may be the response of someone who has had a very frustrating day for whatever reason. [Personally, I am unaware of such behaviour but I do not read every thread.]

My experience of this Women's Rights' section is that anyone who is curious can raise any question and will receive responses that inform and link to relevant references for further information.

I lurk a lot, which should probably be my username!

I am genuinely not understanding this 'argument'

Are there feminists/women who stand up for womens rights (or whatever you want to call it) that wouldn't defend a vulnerable womans situation when its threatened by male bodies/privilege?

Why is there a divide here?

I wont go into detail, as its triggering, but feeling supported by women horrified at what happened to myself and my girls in a refuge that supported males in a women only, supposedly safe, space, was a life-saver.

Are there those that would deliberately turn their back/deaf ear because its not 'feminism'?

I think this must be the case for the feminist workers in refuge, or some have to submit and cannot speak out or will no longer be able to help women and their children in great need. I wonder which it is.

Also, if you have been a victim of this ideology, or your child has, you'll be absolutely bloody fuming. Outraged and afraid.

There are only two types of poster who post questions and wonder why on earth we're talking about this issue.

Those who don't know anything about it and genuinely want to know, and those who know everything about it and want us to shut up.

(And occasionally someone who just thinks women should shut up generally, not just about this).

Most of the time it's easy tell one from the other, but sometimes it isn't. And people make mistakes.

Plus, of course, everyone is different.

The rest of the site is exactly the same. Some people are aggressive, some people are mistakenly aggressive, etc.

But when it's accompanied by a 'oh not this again, don't we know better than this' attitude where you can pretty much see the eye-roll I'm a little disappointed that the poster doesn't consider getting the feminist messages across as being more important than displaying their rank.

Yes.

In terms of a place for women to express their views freely and safely, I don't know a better one.

I agree, youkiddingme. This Women's Rights section of Mumsnet is mostly informative, educational and very welcoming to women.

I genuinely hope you feel able to raise any question about anything of which you are curious and will receive helpful and accommodating responses.

I agree the board is dominated by trans issues. I also think these issues are important enough to warrant it. I respect those of you who don't. I'll read any thread pertinent to women that you care to put up.

I totally reject that it's an issue for only women in power as someone suggested. I'm disabled, poor and have bugger all power and I'm terrified. I doubt rape victims who have to share rape counselling services with penises are feeling too powerful either. Or women who work from home or provide or are provided with care services.

However, I do think there's a tendency within the threads for some people to give out messages that they know better, are better feminists, and any other view-point is spurious. There's a feeling that if you haven't got the right feminist history or stripes your views don't count. I think some of this is because sadly we get visitors who are out to cause trouble. However, it is very off-putting to women who are new to feminism when their views aren't just disagreed with, but often ridiculed. But there are also women who are wonderfully encouraging, patient in explaining, happy to share resources for those who want to know more. And there's actually less, 'get a grip, you're an idiot' type remarks on the feminist board than on many other parts of mumsnet. Speaking for myself, I might find it harder to engage with the put-downs on the feminist board because I have to acknowledge that my knowledge is lacking in many areas. If I post something that another member knows more about I'm very happy to have them explain their perspective and give me information I didn't have which might make me look at things again. But when it's accompanied by a 'oh not this again, don't we know better than this' attitude where you can pretty much see the eye-roll I'm a little disappointed that the poster doesn't consider getting the feminist messages across as being more important than displaying their rank.

But let's face it, on any forum you visit there will be people you think are dicks and people who think you are. In terms of a place for women to express their views freely and safely, I don't know a better one.

I'm sorry, I don't understand why distinguishing women's rights from feminism is instructive in this particular context?

Perhaps it is very simple?

Perhaps it is not only those women who are [radical, as in 'root'] feminists who defend Women's Rights?

And, again for the record, there are many women working hard on other aspects of patriarchal subjugation of women in pornography, prostitution, slavery, etc. They just don't do that work via Mumsnet.