Are feminists getting played?

X post with TheCountess!

It's interesting how the "MN calls for the return of section 28!!!" has become such a trope and passed into modern legend, especially amongst genderists.

The post it originally appeared in was by a supporter of the genderist agenda, not one of the regular GC vipers who post on FWR.

It was then screenshotted by our stalker fans on, I think, Twitter and posted out of context.

Et voilà "MN calls for the return of section 28!!!!"

I remember where the section 28 lie came from.
There was a pro-TRA poster who, in the course of a genuine discussion, referred sarcastically to a new section 28. This was seized on by one of the more hard of thinking/disingenuous TRAs who were watching MN and quoted out of context as evidence that MNers were explicitly calling for a new section 28. Which their misogynist idiot friends who would believe anything of Mumsnet eagerly took as gospel.
The irony of it being someone on their own side who had used the term was beautiful.
It is useful evidence of the bad faith of anyone who claims to have seen it on here.

Partly it's the way threads about other feminist issues get buried and ignored.

You and all the other people unhappy with the performance of other users are welcome to post on these though? So it's your own lack of response that you are unhappy with not ours?

Partly it's the outright enthusiasm for some really revolting woman-hating people because they have the right views on trans issues (it's never "I know Rod Liddle is a girlfriend-beating misogynistic cunt but hold your nose and hear him out on this one issue" but instead "ooh, go Rod! Rod nails it again!").

It often is 'I know Rod/A Nother Man is a woman hater and we don't want him on 'our side' but this is his latest article which nails it. Also, you are free to call out anyone's woman hating rhetoric so why don't you do that yourself? Unless you want other women to continue to do your work for you? I've seen this called out time and time again, and it is more that 'if even a right wing woman hater like X can see this harms women, why can't anyone on the left?'

Partly it's the fact that I've seen people trying to promote all sorts of unpalatable positions (UKIP are the only party protecting women, supporters of serial abuser of women Donald Trump are victimised like GC feminists, we need to bring back Section 28, etc) on here using the giant trans shoehorn, which makes me suspect that you have a couple of far right sleepers on here who aren't quite who they claim to be.

If you saw this you called it out right? As I have never seen anyone coming up with this apart from other people moaning that the board isn't feministing properly.

Partly it's the way that the language always leaps to the extreme. I think most people's experiences would tend towards "most trans women genuinely believe they are women but that can't be allowed to override women's web-based protections", whereas MN invariably seems to leap straight to "trans women are MRAs who are only doing it to gaslight women".

All trans women know they are men. Thats why they are 'trans'. when men try and force women to accept them as women, when we and they all know that they are men, it is gaslighting to force women into this position.

A forum is made up of its members, and their words. If you choose not to participate then that is your choice. Flailing about afterwards crying that other women don't see your point of view which you can kept to yourself is your fault, not theirs.

So I felt I had to say this even though I know I'll get a load of abuse for it. Oh dear, pre-empting disagreement is a trait of abuser, so that you have already set up some sort of 'see look what you made me do' dynamic. Perhaps you need some sort of therapy to come to terms with the fact that other women are not meeting your expectations?

I do remember a couple of blokes trying to promote UKIP here when the Challenor report was published and just before the MEP elections.
They didn't get very far.

Oh. First post from them. Silly me.

RedToothBrush I’m inclined to agree.

Partly it's the way threads about other feminist issues get buried and ignored. Partly it's the outright enthusiasm for some really revolting woman-hating people because they have the right views on trans issues (it's never "I know Rod Liddle is a girlfriend-beating misogynistic cunt but hold your nose and hear him out on this one issue" but instead "ooh, go Rod! Rod nails it again!"). Partly it's the fact that I've seen people trying to promote all sorts of unpalatable positions (UKIP are the only party protecting women, supporters of serial abuser of women Donald Trump are victimised like GC feminists, we need to bring back Section 28, etc) on here using the giant trans shoehorn, which makes me suspect that you have a couple of far right sleepers on here who aren't quite who they claim to be. Partly it's the way that the language always leaps to the extreme. I think most people's experiences would tend towards "most trans women genuinely believe they are women but that can't be allowed to override women's web-based protections", whereas MN invariably seems to leap straight to "trans women are MRAs who are only doing it to gaslight women".

Ho ho ho.

Given this is a series of outright lies, I'm just going to politely go 'nice bullshit'.

Next time try harder.

Badatthinkingofname - Well, yes, people have observed that UKIP is the only party not to capitulate to TWAW, but one has said that they will be voting for them, have they? Do correct me if I’m wrong. When I’ve seen this said, it’s generally framed within “but the rest of their policies are so anti-woman that no one in their right mind would vote for them”. I’d also be interested to know who on here has said that we should bring back Section 28?

I do find this kind of tribal, ideological purity thinking really lazy and unnuanced, i.e. that there can’t possibly be any overlap between different political groups, or that people can’t seem to acknowledge that individuals might arrive at the same conclusions through different processes or beliefs.

You’re not being abused when people challenge your comments either. I’m quite tired of that word being thrown around.

Badatthinkingofnames can you link to examples of any of the accusations you make? I definitely don’t see UKIP supporters on FWR! You’re talking a whole lot of nonsense.

Obviously that should be "sex-based protections" .

"I'm not trying to "tell anyone off" or silence anyone - just add the perspective that there are a lot of feminists who don't buy in to the MN consensus and who don't post here because of responses like this. And I think that is representative of a wider issue GC is creating in feminism."

Personally I'd agree with this. I'm strongly inclined to be gender critical and want to read more but the MN boards honestly make me doubt my own gender critical instincts. Partly it's the way threads about other feminist issues get buried and ignored. Partly it's the outright enthusiasm for some really revolting woman-hating people because they have the right views on trans issues (it's never "I know Rod Liddle is a girlfriend-beating misogynistic cunt but hold your nose and hear him out on this one issue" but instead "ooh, go Rod! Rod nails it again!"). Partly it's the fact that I've seen people trying to promote all sorts of unpalatable positions (UKIP are the only party protecting women, supporters of serial abuser of women Donald Trump are victimised like GC feminists, we need to bring back Section 28, etc) on here using the giant trans shoehorn, which makes me suspect that you have a couple of far right sleepers on here who aren't quite who they claim to be. Partly it's the way that the language always leaps to the extreme. I think most people's experiences would tend towards "most trans women genuinely believe they are women but that can't be allowed to override women's web-based protections", whereas MN invariably seems to leap straight to "trans women are MRAs who are only doing it to gaslight women".

I know the response to this will be that I'm a man or an anti-feminist agitator. I'm not - I'm a lifelong feminist, GC sympathiser and admirer of a LOT of what you do on here. So I felt I had to say this even though I know I'll get a load of abuse for it.

I agree that it's important because of some particular implications, especially around the law, speech issues, and the children's health issues are urgent. I also think it gets a lot of attention because people are so shocked when they find out what is going on.

I'm not sure I understand the need to be personal and sarcastic discussing it though. It does take up a lot of time and space. Maybe it is out of proportion. I can listen to someone talking about that. Even if I think they don't make sense I don't have to be personal about it.

@datun I need help

Sorry, Girl, I had to go out.

Frankly, I have said everything I need to say, as has everyone else.

It's just becoming a rehash. A waste of time.

Directional your energies elsewhere, to where it will have an impact x

It's not something that can be won be either side.

But it could have been lost by our side, if women hadn't started resisting.

Maniak, FWIW, I understand why some are fed up of this bloody topic. I got to that stage almost as soon as the initial shock of having a trans ID kid wore off. It's exhausting and fucking annoying because I realized quickly that I was having the same conversations and dealing with repeated misinformation over and over. And yes, I get that sometimes it's prickly here - perhaps that's because the kinds of personalities that are able to tenaciously work on a wide ranging topic like this for a sustained period are not necessarily cuddly bunnies.

But despite discouragement, I do believe there can be progress. On lots of fronts, actually. Yes, we might not be able to stop the eventual nuclear annihilation or any other apocalyptic end, but until that point, we can mobilize this ruddy great crowd of women who have all the ingenuity, skills and derring do that has brought humanity any number of brilliant achievements, and inspire them to reach for a world that means they dont have to accept shit just because that's the way it's always been. Julia Long talked when I met her about being creative, rather than reactive, and I am really striving for that.

If we can’t define what a women is then what is a feminist as feminists centre women but then we can’t define what a women is then what can feminists talk about

As in Canada anyone who says they are a woman is a woman so what can feminists talk about ?

If we want to talk about poor women, well, there's women who are currently a great deal poorer because Yaniv has destroyed their businesses.

If we want to talk about poor women, there's women who are a great deal poorer because they have missed out on medals, and prize money, and sponsorship, because mediocre male-bodied athletes have stolen the top spots in women's sports.

If we want to talk about poor women, there's girls who are missing out on educational trips and other opportunities for their future CVs because they can't be confident of getting safe accommodation.

etc etc.

Yeah Michelle. Nailed it 💪

And yeah maniak it can be won. And will be won for the sake of our daughters and for girls and women everywhere.
No thanks shon. I am not welcoming my erasure

Well, Yaniv hasn't been an 'easy target', has h? There have been court orders, bannings, all sorts of ridiculously outre stuff that until now has been gotten away with, and without a certain amount of tenacity, would still be getting a pass. I think perhaps there's a touch of naive complacency knocking about that thinks that the abusive trans silliness is so* obviously wrong that someone would eventually sort it out, but the fact is that none of the baby steps forward that women have made, like the Scotland situation, or the GRA consultation becoming a hot potato that the government has just kicked into the long grass, would have actually happened were it not for women, many of them the women here, pressing and pressing and not letting it go.

I cannot fix everything in society I would like to, but it won't stop me trying. But human nature being what it is, I will tend to take on the fights I think I might be able to win.

Oooh look feminists, something shiny.

Yeah, heard it. Got this t shirt. If we don't fight now to preserve and separate women's rights from males who want to use them, there is no point in ever worrying about any other feminist or women's rights issue ever again. Game over. Done.

So no thanks, you can keep your shiny thing, and I can handle as many difficult targets as necessary in order to protect women, girls and safeguarding of children from a concerted and organised assault.