Are feminists getting played?

By the way maniak, the experiment where you thought you could perhaps still have the power to refer to transwomen by their correct sex?

You've been deleted. Twice.

The ideology wants to ignore the power dynamic between men and women. It wants to blur the biological differences, so that you can't tell who is in charge.

They're poor because of all the unpaid work, the caring responsibilities. Why not say that directly?

There is no point in saying that without being able to link it to the defined term woman. Of course, you can say 'People're poor because of all the unpaid work, the caring responsibilities.' And then everyone will wonder, why some people choose to do unpaid work and take on caring responsibilities, while others don't... A mistery. Impossible to address by policies.

They're poor because of all the unpaid work, the caring responsibilities.

This is one of the odd things about those older men who "transition". They only seem to want to express the physical trappings of what is presented by patriarchy as femininity: hairstyles, breasts, underwear, clothes, nail varnish, accessories, footwear etc. They only ever want to look like they imagine women to be. They never want to take on the unpaid work and the caring responsibilities or any other aspects of women's lives.

You only need to read the Trans Widows threads here to understand this.

via self ID

Under sharia law, the differences between men and women are clearly maintained. It's the opposite of self ID. Imagine self Id in Afghanistan! It would be awesome.

It is pretty much irrelevant whether you disappear women from public spaces by explicitly prohibiting women to be there under threat of male violence or by prohibiting them from feeling safe from male violence in all public spaces by delivering them to male violence ia self ID.

I disagree that it is time wasting. The reform of the GRA 2004 was being progressed in the absence of any consultation with women. Women asserting themselves into that progress stalled it. We continue to stall it.

Women asserting themselves into the practice of treating children has raised all kinds of questions about what is going on.

I agree with that. In the course of this struggle women have reasserted as a political force to be reckoned with. The media and politicians tried to railroad women, and they found they couldn't, women are a force to be reckoned with. This lesson will reverberate beyond the trans issue imo.

Under sharia law, the differences between men and women are clearly maintained. It's the opposite of self ID. Imagine self Id in Afghanistan! It would be awesome.

Sex self-ID does nothing to challenge the gender power hierarchy though, does it. Sex self-ID just allows a woman to claim she is a man and a man to declare himself a woman. The gender power hierarchy imposed by patriarchy to sustain itself still exists.

But I have looked at it and I have concluded that, while very important, it is not the most important.

I don't understand how any other issue can be addressed if you can't explain what a woman is.

Going back to the OP, whether or not you care about bathrooms or single sex spaces, you can't talk about the reasons that older women are more likely to be poor if you can't talk about the issues that affect them because they are women.

However that doesn't mean I should agree with the analysis that it is the most pressing issue in feminism. It just isn't, to me. That is my analysis. I know others disagree. But I have looked at it and I have concluded that, while very important, it is not the most important. And furthermore I think it is taking up all feminist energy to the neglect of everything else.

Do you have evidence for this assertion that it is taking up all feminist energy to the neglect of everything else, please?

Feminist activism does actually occur outside of Mumsnet, as far as I am aware.

I don't necessarily think this means feminists are being played, though it kind of looks like we are, it just means that trans is serving its purpose of being a time waster.

I disagree that it is time wasting. The reform of the GRA 2004 was being progressed in the absence of any consultation with women. Women asserting themselves into that progress stalled it. We continue to stall it.

Women asserting themselves into the practice of treating children has raised all kinds of questions about what is going on.

So, in my view, not a minute has been wasted or will be wasted in the future, since the trans voice is now not the only one in the arena.

That's why it's so weird to see the fight over single sex spaces as if they're feminists greatest achievements (although I do like them). Nah. We are women, we can't be defined away because we're real.

The issue with the invasion of women's spaces is not that we will be defined away, but that we will in the long run be excluded from public life. Women in Afghanistan have not been defined away...

We are women, we can't be defined away because we're real.

Yes I think this is what the OP is essentially getting at.

I have been fighting against trans for years. Have had more than my fair share of rape threats from misogynistic transwomen. Yes I understand class analysis and how trans affects us all across the board.

However that doesn't mean I should agree with the analysis that it is the most pressing issue in feminism. It just isn't, to me. That is my analysis. I know others disagree. But I have looked at it and I have concluded that, while very important, it is not the most important. And furthermore I think it is taking up all feminist energy to the neglect of everything else.

I don't necessarily think this means feminists are being played, though it kind of looks like we are, it just means that trans is serving its purpose of being a timewaster.

Definitions in law are pretty important you will find.

Well said, @RedToothBrush.

And thankfully UK law does define men and women and sex.

Sex is defined as the congruence of chromosomes, gonads and genitals.

Man is defined as a male of any age.

Woman is defined as a female of any age.

We are women, we can't be defined away because we're real.

Definitions in law are pretty important you will find.

We absolutely can be written out of law.

Absence from statistics and absence from specific definitions simply erases the issues that women have.

It enables the idea that there is no problem, because the problem is not officially visible so it can not be officially recognised and in turn does not need to be solved because it does not exist officially.

The problem still exists but not officially.

Visibility is a big part of tackling issues and that requires definitions which reflect accurately and explicitly.

I even get the piss taken out if me for wearing a brightly coloured t-shirt

How awful for you, LordRudolph - that's just like the oppression women face daily, so I totes see how you 'get' us now.

OP, I have no reason to think that you didn't start this thread in good faith, but I feel the time and energy that feminists are spending justifying why the gender issue is important to the cause (on this thread, on others and in general life) is actually what's distracting them from the cause.

One of the important reasons for employers to encourage LGB people to be out at work is because of the energy it takes up having to censor everything you say and not reveal your true identity, when this energy could otherwise be spent on being productive at work. While I'm generally out as gay, I definitely feel I go through having to censor myself on sex/gender/trans issues at work as I know how powerful the gender message is in my organisation. It's exhausting and leaves me with less energy to fight all the issues I'd otherwise be fighting so my personal priority is to focus on this issue (among a few others) as it's most pressing to me.

Others obviously choose their own priorities based on their views and circumstances, and I see loads of evidence out there that other women are focussing on other feminist issues - the dragon analogy from a PP is perfect.

That's why it's so weird to see the fight over single sex spaces as if they're feminists greatest achievements

Single sex spaces are essential for the privacy, wellbeing dignity and safety of women and girls from men. That is why women cannot afford to have them stolen from us.

We are women, we can't be defined away because we're real.

Of course people can't be 'defined away'.

However, you can very easily define away rights, services and protections.

I have more freedom than my mother, grandmother and great grandmother because of access to contraception, maternity leave and equality law.

You cannot make the connection between access to contraception and increased participation in the work force if you can't identify the people whose participation in the work force is increasing because they can control their fertility.

• and all that is before you even begin to look at the harm caused by forcing everybody into a gender box.

Feminists have always been critical of the "woman" construct. That's why it's so weird to see the fight over single sex spaces as if they're feminists greatest achievements (although I do like them). Nah. We are women, we can't be defined away because we're real.

I think you'll find that feminists have always been critical of the sexist stereotypes created by patriarchy that are attached to women.

No, feminists have been critical of the expectation that we need to perform femininity. Don't confuse that with the single sex spaces and services provided because of biological need, privacy, or personal safety.

Fortunately, @Maniak, laws are not made on the basis of your thought experiments / imaginings.