Should we campaign for even more women only spaces

Was reading the other day about the explosion of women in the workplace in Saudi Arabia and how this is being accommodated by the building and development of women only offices, health centres, factories etc.

This is a tricky one. On one hand we are now discussing the extension of female only spaces, services, products...like a parallel society - where women live more and more separately from men and male society.

The common denominator here is the realisation of the biological, physical, & 'other' differences between men and women, and how it is often in the best interests of women, as well as men, to have separate spaces where women can relax and feel safe, and where men can also enjoy male society.

Obviously in Saudi Arabia this sort of single sex solution is originating from a very different angle, but the net effect is pretty much the same.

How do societies manage the tensions and conflicts inherent in the reality of two sexes?

I've been day dreaming about setting up a women's only club.

Do you mean a physical club or an association? I belong to a women's association and only women are members. Surely there are lots of groups like that?

Would it be permissible for a private members club to include a rule, which all members must sign up to, along the lines of 'as a member you agree to chromosome testing upon request of the leadership'?

I have no idea if private members clubs could do such a thing but surely they have more leeway than public services for example?

I've been day dreaming about setting up a women's only club.

How would it be possible to verify natal sex, do you think? (Given that the UKGov retroactively falsify birth certificates.)

In UK, let's campaign to make all the Exceptions written in the Equality Act 2010 mandatory provision first and foremost

Yes ^

Re. setting up more women’s spaces - I think the main obstacle is, how is a small privately/crowd-funded space able to cope with a legal challenge from an aggrieved transactivist in the present climate?

^^ This is why we need to focus on Jacky's suggestion first:

In UK, let's campaign to make all the Exceptions written in the Equality Act 2010 mandatory provision first and foremost

I haven't got a clue how to even begin to do that, but I'd support any one who does.

I would suggest women only areas may be permissible under this exception

That does sound like it. Especially if women grew crops around the borders

Land access is a complex issue and the law varies Scotland and England are separate legal entities.

I'm Scottish myself so much more familiar with Scots Law but I am pretty sure land access is less rather than more permissive south of the border.

In terms of Scotland a quick google brings up this list of exceptions to access

Where do access rights not apply?

on 02 August 2008.

The main places where access rights are not exercisable are:
· Houses and other residences, and sufficient space around them to give residents reasonable privacy and lack of disturbance this will often be the garden area.
· Other buildings, works and structures, and the areas around them (curtilages).
· Land where crops are growing. Grass is not treated as a crop, except hay and silage in the late stages of growth. You can exercise access rights on field margins.
· Land next to and used by a school.
· Places, such as visitor attractions, which charge for entry.
· Land on which building or engineering works are being carried out, or which is being used for mineral working or quarrying.
· Land developed and in use for a particular recreational purpose, where the exercise of access rights would interfere with this use.
· Land set out for a particular recreational purpose or as a sports or playing field, when it is being used for that purpose and exercise of the rights would interfere with the use. But rights never apply to specially prepared sports surfaces golf greens, tennis courts or bowling greens

I would suggest women only areas may be permissible under this exception

Land developed and in use for a particular recreational purpose, where the exercise of access rights would interfere with this use.

But, it is the sort of thing that could potentially be challenged in court.

AnyOldPrion oh that tweet is kinda what I expected to happen.

The right to roam thing.... I’m not British sorry so I don’t understand it completely. If women were to buy land and create I don’t know, a pond or a forest or something, surely it would be private? I know people ramble across farms and stuff but does that literally mean anywhere and everywhere?

In UK, let's campaign to make all the Exceptions written in the Equality Act 2010 mandatory provision first and foremost

I would agree with this. Take the decision away from individual organisations and make it a legal requirement to provide single sex spaces where people are vulnerable due to nakedness, unconsciousness, physical contact.

If organisations wish they can provide mixed sex spaces as well as not instead of.

In terms of land there are differences legally between Scotland and England in terms of people's right to roam. It would not be simple (possible?) to ban one sex or other from a large tract of land in Scotland. Bit easier in England if I recall rightly but I'm no expert on the subject.

You can go wild swimming in Yorkshire? I’d love to give that a go.

Re. setting up more women’s spaces - I think the main obstacle is, how is a small privately/crowd-funded space able to cope with a legal challenge from an aggrieved transactivist in the present climate?

I have long wanted to set up a female only crafts society but I cannot afford to defend myself in court if a ‘woman’ with a penis wants to join and won’t take no for an answer. They litigate for funzies, look at JY and the flying lawyer.

The women's holiday Centre in Horton

I shall go and look this up. I was unaware of these places, but I love the idea of being in women only environments.

The women's holiday Centre in Horton is really lovely and there are lots of wild swimming spots around there.
If anyone's in cumbria or Yorkshire neck or the woods.

Whenever and wherever men gather to discuss women's rights, women are never the subject of the debate - women are the football to be kicked around by the male debaters, the Mass debaters, from all angles.

Saw on Twitter that there’s a suggestion that the new pond rules have already led to problems. Very sad (as well as predictable) if so.

twitter.com/davecurtis314/status/1153716610408026112?s=21

Sounds like a good idea Jacky.

but the ladies pond at Hampstead Heath is not a single sex space.

Yes that’s correct, it no longer is.

I know this is off topic, but the ladies pond at Hampstead Heath is not a single sex space.

There's no reason why non-lesbian women couldn't crowd-fund to buy land and buildings and run them as women-only.

Yes and Brownfield sites are a great option too.

In UK, let's campaign to make all the Exceptions written in the Equality Act 2010 mandatory provision first and foremost. This way any service that wants to opt-out of such mandatory provision has to carry out an Equality Impact Assessment to determine why such a space should have licence to opt-out of that mandatory provision.

Schedule 3, section 26 [separate services for the sexes]; section 27 [single sex services] and section 28 [gender reassignment] are relevant here:

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/3

See also Schedule 23, section 3 [Communal accommodation]:

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/23

Part 14 [General exceptions], section 195 [Sport]

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/195

Part 2 Equality: key concepts
Chapter 1 Protected characteristics

11Sex
In relation to the protected characteristic of sex—
(a) a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a man or to a woman;
(b) a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to persons of the same sex.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/11

Section 212 defines the two sexes as:

man is a male of any age

woman is a female of any age

After all this, how can anyone have any confusion? Seriously?
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/212

I think this is a nice idea, I can see two main issues potentially.

One is that you'd have to be prepared that it would also suggest that men's spaces are ok, and some people would find it controversial because of that.

The second would be, how many women are going o be interested in the kind of spece you are thinking about. I've found that a lot of women just aren't especially interested in that idea. It's not so much they have a problem with it but they'd not be keen to do it themselves. So you'd need enough to sustain the activity or space.