The fatal, hateful rise of choking during sex - Guardian piece

Anyoldlabour, the journalist who shot a baboon was AA Gill.

WTF happened

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4343520/Gwyneth-Paltrow-s-Goop-publishes-anal-sex-guide.html

This is genuinely awful.

I've never wanted to choke or be chocked (or known friends who are into it). Even if this is what you like - should we accept the word of your killer?! "Oh she loved it"

Extremes like this should not be acceptable as 'kink'

I don't know if this is here already and I missed it but I'm gobsmacked and so so sad about this.

fightthenewdrug.org/21-year-old-webcammer-dies-while-performing-dangerous-sex-act-for-client/

Finally, attempting to fulfill her client’s requests, Hope asphyxiated herself and did not recover. And the worst part? As she struggled to breathe and slowly died, Dangar watched his screen like it was a movie, making no move to call for help.

I think 50 Shades of Grey has done immense amounts of harm TBH. It has normalised "BDSM" behaviour and brought it into popular discourse in a way which has propagates the belief that a woman can have a happy ever after with a man who stalks her and is violent towards her.
I am well aware that the "BDSM community" has disowned the book but that does not change the fact that it has affected peoples attitudes. The "rough sex" defence has only emerged in very recent years since that book came out.

but I'd understood that the case of Brown determined that no one could consent to assault? I really don't see therefore how choking can be acceptable even if there are women claiming to like it?

I also understood that to be the case and I think the OP article said so as well.

I wonder if it comes down to drawing a line as to what is going on? Hair pulling could be assault, but then it might not be if it's not really meant to hurt the person and not meant to be done very hard, and they say it is ok. What counts as pretending and what is the real thing?

I would have thought though barring very weird circumstances if someone is killed or actually beaten it's clearly no longer "pretend".

Not once was oral sex suggested or alluded to. I had never heard of it.

That's interesting, I'm not old enough o remember that far, but I do know when I was a young women and would read things like Cosmo, it talked about oral sex as something that had at one time been seen as icky, but that research revealed it had actually been common. The sense in my generation was that oral sex was normal and vanilla and not being interested was very odd and prudish.

And TBH I would say most women my age would still say that, including ones who are critical of anal and all the rest of it, it seems to be accepted as vanilla without a thought because they have always accepted it.

But none of the women on this thread who have shared the details of the sexual predelictions have shown the slightest desire to ask that question. They have instead been at pains to simply say that what they 'consent' to isn't the bad kind of strangulation. Cursory acknowledgement that it might be bad in some cases if the woman 'doesn't consent' is not the same thing as subjecting your submission to open abuse to serious analysis.

No, they didn't, but I don't think every individual post has to. They were specific responses to certain people claiming again and again that no women really like such things. And I think at least one of the posters seemed interested in considering the wider implications, was reading for that reason, but didn't have anything to contribute about that herself.

And yet there are still some posters taking that approach, that it is impossible, that they are fooling themselves, or whatever. Personally I suspect while more extreme stuff probably relates in part to trauma, not all of the lesser stuff does does, it has more to do with physical sensations which are perceived differently when people are sexually aroused.

My thoughts often spill out as doggerel.

Say No
.
No, you don’t have to take it up the bum
No, you don’t have to swallow everyman’s cum
No, it’s not ok for his hands to tighten round your neck
And you don’t need a few slaps so you can enjoy it
He’s not joking? What the heck?
His dungeon in his camper van, tell him it’s not for you
And he can leave his phone outside, you’re no-one’s pay-per-view
The con of the ‘cool girlfriend’ is nothing but abuse
If he thinks he can insist, cut the bastard loose
His friend cannot join in nor can he stand and watch
You don’t do it just to help him sleep, you’re not his wank-sock
His other girlfriends do it, and all his friends’ girls too?
Fine, that’s their choice but listen, love, it’s not a choice for you
You came into this world beloved, every cell more precious than gold
Your being and your beauty are wondrous to behold
It’s an honour for those bastards just to see you walking by
Don’t ever let them hurt you just because you’re socialised
To accept any crap men give you, any cruelty, any lie
Keep your dignity, your boundaries, your honour true to you
And never think you must do something you didn’t choose
No, he doesn’t get last word
No, you don’t have to please him
No, you’re not his sex toy
No, you didn’t tease him
If he’s a decent person and
Accepts that you are, too
Negotiate mutual pleasure
Do what you want to do
But don’t ignore the little voice or doubt or discontent
The instinct for survival that tells you this isn’t how it’s meant
To be, and so learn this word and practise it
No. No. No. No. No.

WITD 27/7/19

Not sure if this has already been shared but another article highlighting the dangers
www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2019/06/how-porn-affecting-choking-during-sex/592375/

I feel we need a national educational campaign in schools as this could literally save lives

Probably should NC but never mind
As someone who has taken part in it, choking someone to death "by accident" is bullshit. There is exactly one person I trust to put her hand on my neck and that's a female
I mean even if you decided you had read about it and wanted to try it mutually, you would bloody know if the other person is dying
In my head I suspect it's men thinking they want to try it/the woman will "love it"/or just that they want to do it, no discussion takes place and they don't give a fuck what happens to the woman
It's crazy

You're right Anne, of course consent to choking isn't recognised in law, but in that article there are at least two cases where the CPS determined that 'rough sex' and the woman's past behaviour could be used as a defence and went for manslaughter rather than murder. When men can murder their partners and get away with just manslaughter and four years by committing the murder during sex and arguing that their partner enjoyed being choked, consent is accepted as a defence in practice.

As for women who rock up on a thread about murdered women and the sex game gone wrong defence and go 'I love dangerous sex, me', I don't know whether it's a special level of thick or some warped form of reverse prudishness, but fgs think about what you're saying and where. This isn't about your enjoyment. You can experience pleasure hanging from a belt off a door, but you wouldn't advocate that practice on a public website, would you. (Because if your contribution to the topic is 'well I like it', you are advocating it.)

And men who are uncomfortable with choking but do it anyway: just don't fucking do it. Presumably you wouldn't stub a cigarette out on a woman's flesh if she asked for it, so why would you choke her? Because it's so common in porn?

Thank you Fiona Mackenzie and everyone else shining a light on this

I really don't see therefore how choking can be acceptable

I posted some clinical papers upthread that indicate the likelihood of injury relating to strangulation seems to be high - even if it's not manifestly apparent.

There may be a nuanced argument around what is meant by recreational choking v. strangulation but...tbh, it's notable that any short term compression on the carotid can result in severe consequences.

Sorry, edit fail "not something one wants to do"

Agree AnneElliott. I think this has been raised quite a few times on various threads, not sure anyone has a satisfactory answer.

Lamahaha maybe we should don our slippers and slink off to oldies corner?

I do have difficulty with the concept of consent here. It's been a while since I did law, but I'd understood that the case of Brown determined that no one could consent to assault?

I really don't see therefore how choking can be acceptable even if there are women claiming to like it?

Boundaries work both ways. I see no reason to choke a woman because she asks for it. How about a discussion of the dangers and pointing out that one doesn't want to take the risk of causing physical harm and in any case it's not something one want me to do?
Seems quite straightforward to me. Wanting to give mutual pleasure also means being allowed not to do things that make one uncomfortable surely?

Says it all!

Thanks for sharing Marmozet and I think this highlights the other side of the problem. Once women are introduced to choking they may see it as normal and expect every sexual encounter to replicate the last. If there was trauma from an early age they already have an issue with boundaries and feeling empowered to enforce them.
Sex is personal and private but apart from sex toys and vibrators how have women influenced what goes on in the bedroom over the last 20 years?
Sex has become almost competitive with women encouraged to be as risque as they dare with no thought to the impact on them short and long term.

Some women do enjoy it. I was in a friend's with benefits situation with a woman who would always ask me to choke her. I felt uncomfortable with this as I'd never done it before. Because it's a violent action it prompted me to ask if she had been sexually abused when she was younger; to which she said she didn't want to answer the question.

It was about mutual pleasure, no suggestion of any harmful or violent practices and boundaries respected. Anal? Maybe because I'm a nurse and I've wiped enough bums thank you, but that is a definite No from me. But no one ever asked or suggested it - it really wasn't a thing back then. Hair pulling, slapping, spitting ? I'd have been straight out of there. Choking? I'd have been straight round to the police to report assault / attempted murder and I do believe the police would have taken this seriously back then.

I think I am older than you. In the early 70's I was a free-spirited hippie and had my share of "fun".
Not once was oral sex suggested or alluded to. I had never heard of it.
The first I heard of it was when I went to the USA for six months as an intern in 1981. I met someone and he wanted it. The very idea shocked me deeply.

Yes that's the piece, WomanDaresTo
It's an excellent piece. Maybe I will print it off so my teen can share it with her friends without me being the guilty party and an embarrassment in front of her mates?

I have read quite a lot of similar threads and discussions on Mumsnet, and am still amazed at how these sexual practices seem to have become mainstream. I have been married (faithfully) for 20 years now, but I was older when I married and certainly had my Sex and the City fun before then. I can honestly say (and no doubt I am fortunate here) I have never been treated with disrespect by any man, in the bedroom. It was about mutual pleasure, no suggestion of any harmful or violent practices and boundaries respected. Anal? Maybe because I'm a nurse and I've wiped enough bums thank you, but that is a definite No from me. But no one ever asked or suggested it - it really wasn't a thing back then. Hair pulling, slapping, spitting ? I'd have been straight out of there. Choking? I'd have been straight round to the police to report assault / attempted murder and I do believe the police would have taken this seriously back then.

And thinking of Sex and the City - I don't recall any of these sorts or practices ever occurring on the show - Charlotte took a dim view of anal and it was probably only alluded to once or twice, not enthusiastically promoted as mainstream. Sure, it was a comedy, so nothing too dark, but I don't remember any violent activities. I vaguely remember some guy revealing a liking for golden showers or similar to Samantha - it was a No from her. And fine, just a tv show, but surely to some extent it reflected the sexual mores of the time? The women had no problems with boundaries as far as I recall, and there was an expectation of the men making an effort to satisfy their needs.

So in the last twenty years, which coincides neatly with the rise of the Internet and porn, every day sex has morphed into a violent scene from a porn movie.

Clearly it isn't just women who need educating - boys do too, as evidenced by the young man cited in the article who thought his girlfriend liked being choked, while she thought he liked doing it...

Also women's magazines - it's a long time since I read Cosmopolitan but I'm pretty sure there were lots of articles about finding your G spot and other methods of giving and getting pleasure. Are they really advising these nasty violent and dangerous practices now? Shame on them if they are, this needs calling out.

Excellent work by those behind this and great article. How did we end up here in 2019. Thinking back to my libfem days, it felt almost obligatory to be “cool” with porn - girls and young women are groomed into it. Will be sharing this nieces.