Boris Johnson is the twentieth Prime Minister from Eton

BJ is a good argument for scrapping Eton
Educating men above their intelligence and giving them the arrogance to believe they can hold high office without any evidence to back up the belief

What do you mean by ‘merits’? Because this sounds uncomfortably like scientific racism. Are the privileged genetically superior?

Well, I don't think anyone is genetically superior. It's a category error.

But it may well be that there are some characteristics that contribute to worldly success that run in families, or some that contribute to its lack. A propensity to certain types of mental illness, a propensity to addiction - both have a genetic component, sometimes a very strong one. Being unusually good looking, or athletic, are things that can contribute to success that are strongly determined by genetics, and I am sure there are others.

Fairly small effects can be magnified a lot on a population wide level, especially combined with the other benefits that will come from being born with successful parents.

If over time you find that children share the merits off their parents, you can soon easily have a class system, even if there is not a huge wealth divide

What do you mean by ‘merits’?

Because this sounds uncomfortably like scientific racism. Are the privileged genetically superior?

All the UK PM's who went to English universites went to either Oxford or Cambridge.

I don't think that is a surprise. I'd expect PMs are more likely to be university educated than not, and they are considered some of the best universities in the world.

That's not a meritocracy. To work a meritocracy has to have mechanisms which ensure that each generation can achieve their potential, so an oligarchy cannot take root. There will never be a perfect meritocracy but many countries do it a lot better.

It's good to have mechanisms to ensure that all people can achieve their potential. But all systems need mechanisms to make them work and have potential failings associated with them, including meritocracy.

A lesser one is how to prevent the children of the wealthy and powerful from starting off ahead to the degree that it means they will almost inevitably remain on top. You can do that somewhat for material things, but it's less clear that you can compensate for other characteristics. If over time you find that children share the merits off their parents, you can soon easily have a class system, even if there is not a huge wealth divide.

But what's more concerning IMO is a tendency for people to think merit makes them deserving, or better or whatever. It's the exact mirror of people who think belonging to a particular social class makes them better, except they are even more likely to believe they really deserve their advantages.

Meritocracy also tends to imply a scale of importance, where certain types of work are better, for those with more merit, compared to others. Aside from the obvious effects it can leach very talented people out of certain types of work that are important but less valued.

RedToothBrush,

I think part of the answer is to always give our full attention to the far more interesting life stories of the non-rich-born. Like John Major who turns out to have been staggeringly interesting all along (something he kept well hidden at the time, I admit).
Or Thomas Cromwell in Hilary Mantel's books. Infinitely more interesting than Anne Boleyn and her family.

etc etc, You get the picture!

QaterMiss,

oh god I daren't. Is it full of people who think that their life story is intrinsically more interesting than the life story of anyone who went to a comp?

Let's just abolish Eton and have done with it.

Your post is somewhat misleading MockerstheFeManist - it gives the impression that there has been no established entrance exam over the past several years. Which is obviously not the case.

There was a time, not so long ago, when Eton used to boast about it being a comprehensive. There was no entrance exam, just an 'informal' interview to keep the noveau riches and darkies out.

Gradually, a testing component has been added, and now for 2020 entry for the first time they will be using the same ISEB tests as other leading independent schools.

Come over to the Chalet School thread tobeforgotten - you’ll have so much fun!

(No link as MN broken - it’s in AIBU “not to have realised ...”)

these boring boring people with their boring boring boarding school stories......

You think if Boris was a tousle haired large blonde woman from Bog Standard comprehensive, north of Watford, she would be PM now? I don't
I think the crucial part of that sentence is ‘Bog Standard comprehensive north of Watford’.

If anyone thinks PM was a poisoned chalice when Theresa May got the job, how is is it any better now? The new idiot has given himself until October 31st to deliver the undeliverable.

All the UK PM's who went to English universites went to either Oxford or Cambridge.

If there was a mechanism for kids from different backgrounds to access those kinds of schools more easily ...

They do have a mechanism through which this year at least 83 pupils will pay no fees - but obviously this only works for people who know about it, apply and gain a place through the usual competitive entry. I daresay they could offer much more in this vein by altering the fundamental nature of the ‘product’ offered.

There was definitely an element of the men not wanting the job because it would be career/reputation suicide, which is why May was able to get it and took it.

I would suggest that was because women are conditioned to be a public service, whereas men want to be a hero, and pursue individual glory.

May got the job by default as 'last man standing'. There wasn't a members' vote. (I'm a member and was pretty pissed off about that.)

That's because Leadsom pulled out leaving her the only candidate.
Gove (and the other men) were eliminated by MP voting.

Looks like Boris is #19 not #20. Let's not lose sight of the fact that fourteen of the others were prior to 1905 and women getting the vote.

nickcleggsfault.blogspot.com/2010/05/list-of-old-etonian-prime-ministers.html

I had a look at this just for the post-war years. Because I think comparisons can become less useful if they stretch back too far.

There have been 15 people as PM (Wilson twice non-consecutively, but several for more than one term)

Of the 15:

• two women
• six state educated (including both women)
• 4 old Etonians

• three did not attend university
• one Edinburgh
• 11 Oxford

May got the job by default as 'last man standing'. There wasn't a members' vote. (I'm a member and was pretty pissed off about that.)

I think the most effective first thing anyone could do to see more PMs from other backgrounds would be to create a really good state education system.

I strongly agree with that. That said, the reasons that most judges, MPs etc went to private school are not really about quality of education per se.

Meritocracy isn't all it's cracked up to be though. You just create another kind of elite in fairly short order.

That's not a meritocracy. To work a meritocracy has to have mechanisms which ensure that each generation can achieve their potential, so an oligarchy cannot take root. There will never be a perfect meritocracy but many countries do it a lot better.

The wealthy and powerful of today got there through meritocracy as well, from a big picture perspective.

We have the worst social mobility in the developed world. The merit showed by our elite's ancestors was being able to ride a horse and swing a sword so they could nick land and gold. I think it's gone on long enough.

I don't think the idea that somehow they coerced May into taking that job because she is a woman makes a lot of sense. Anyone who didn't want it wold be happy no matter what the sex of the person who took it, and she wasn't obligated to go after it.

Men created the class system in order to have groups of women it was easier to oppress, and to divide women from each other.

This seems unlikely on a few accounts. First of all the class system oppresses men just as well as women, and many men are under women, from a class perspective. There are also plenty of other more obvious reasons people at the top might have liked this arrangement. It's hard to imagine the men at the bottom of the system would agree to this.

And then there is the total lack of evidence for this idea which is kind of a significant thing when you are making a historical claim.

At a deeper level, I'd ask if it is actually possible to have a complex society without a class system, given that there are different social elements with different functions, I suspect it's inevitable. So not really an invention of anyone, rather a description of something that exists because we are social animals and that creates hierarchies.

I actually think it would make a difference. Eton is one of the mechanisms by which the elite maintain power. If the UK were ever to become a meritocracy, it would have to dismantle some of the barriers.

If there was a mechanism for kids from different backgrounds to access those kinds of schools more easily, it might help with the class issue. I don't think it would make a difference with the sex question though.

Meritocracy isn't all it's cracked up to be though. You just create another kind of elite in fairly short order. The wealthy and powerful of today got there through meritocracy as well, from a big picture perspective. Sometimes it's really better just to admit the playing field isn't level, and there are limits to how level we can make it.

I think the most effective first thing anyone could do to see more PMs from other backgrounds would be to create a really good state education system. When that happens it not only gives the best kids from a lot of different backgrounds the chances to compete for scholarships from elite schools and universities, it means regular kids have a better education as well and there is less pressure for parents to use private education. As long as state education is crap there will be a desire to leave it for something better, even for people who would theoretically say thats not ideal.