Letter to Men

Sorry, there were 3 of them, all men, initially.

Do they look around the room making the decision and think, "hang on, why are we all (white) men in here? Shouldn't there be a woman or POC?"

DH (without my prompting) told me he wanted to hire more women into his (small) company. There were 2 of them, all men, and he hired a woman. Unfortunately she left and there were no female candidates in the next round of recruitment where they hired 2, so it became 5 men.
He told me he was frustrated as now they were a company of all men which might look daunting to female candidates.
This was a couple of year's ago, though, they now have 4 men and 4 women, due to DHs efforts primarily.

Yeah, this ‘open letter to..’ thing, a blend of patronizing sanctimony and finger-wagging admonition that never sinks in with the people it’s nominally intended for because they don’t think it applies to them and their mates, if they catcall or grab a passing arse it’s just banter and an actual compliment innit?

Appreciate the effort but it’s almost like #Me Too ie millions of women coming out and all shouting the same fucking points covered here never fucking happened. This shit isn’t something that a halo-polishing, smug essay can slap a list of rules on and expect them to be followed.

having been offline most of the weekend, am returning to this. I think Decomposing is being a bit obtuse:

And realistically, how many men, in ordinary jobs, sit on any panels? How many have any influence whatsoever over their work place?

This is true, of course, but it can be taken further. Many many men in the workplace are involved, for example, in hiring decisions. Do they look around the room making the decision and think, "hang on, why are we all (white) men in here? Shouldn't there be a woman or POC?" Do they look at the candidates and genuinely consider if the woman is the best candidate when they all naturally "bonded" more with the man? Many men sit on other committees, attend conferences and seminars or even training. Do any of them consider the proportion of men in these sessions? If they're the person responsible for sending people to these sessions, do they consciously aim to send women as often as they send men?

Ditto, your point about why should men do 50% of household tasks and childcare if the woman is a SAHP? But that's not what's being discussed here. If you take all the tasks, including earning money, into account, then I think we can all agree men should take 50% of the burden. But we all know this seldom happens. That if he takes on the bulk of the financial burden, somehow there's little incentive for him to take on any of the rest. Does this really seem fair to you?

“One of the interesting things about the Bechdel test is explaining it to someone”

Yep. It ties in with the “Why do we need feminism any more-surely it’s all been done...” mindset.

One of the interesting things about the Bechdel test is explaining it to someone.

The very concept sometimes brings them up short. What do you mean? Of course films have two women talking about something other than men. Most films, surely? Surely...

...

...

...

How... did she get that? Not that I'm interested.

I think the Bechdel test is worthy, but flawed. Like many of us :D

Yes, the conversation was depressing. I've heard so many exchanges like that over the years, but only started calling them out recently. I've been radicalised by a combination of cancer, menopause, motherhood and MN. I now give no fucks.

i’m sorry, @MilesJuppisnybitch- it wasn’t! It was about the Bedchel test thing. I thought your anecdote was so depressing- and so common. And the sort of thing that makes me cross when people say “but men do all these things already- how dare you suggest they don’t” Well, obviously they don’t- or that sort of thing wouldn’t happen any more!

Incidentally, my dd has Miles Jupp’s number in her phone......

If that reply was to me BertrandRussell, I'm a woman.

Good. That’s one box ticked then. How about the others.....?

Anecdote:

I was sitting in a garden with a Nice group of people a few weeks ago.

Three men were there without their families (that's relevant).

We're putting on a production that will include a fourteen year old girl, who (in the original production) wears a bikini.

ALL THREE MEN (in their late fourties) started saying things like 'phwoar, she definitely has to wear the bikini'.

ALL THREE MEN have teenage children of their own.

ALL THREE MEN are 'nice', normal family men, who are generally kind.

Small minority my fat arse.

(And yes, I did call them out).

I'm pretty sure men do watch films that pass it, since more films are passing it these days.
Most of the big blockbuster films such as Avengers, etc. are passing.

"The Bechdel test isn't a serious rule about what films are ok to watch. People know that, right?"

No shit.

“The Bechdel test isn't a serious rule about what films are ok to watch. People know that, right?“

Of course it’s not. But it would be good if men watched some films that passed it sometimes.

The Bechdel test isn't a serious rule about what films are ok to watch. People know that, right?

Yeah, it's a nice idea, but it wasn't created as a rule, hence it's very flawed.
It shouldn't be taken as a hard and fast rule.
A noted example is Gravity, with Sandra Bullock as the main character and "hero" and scientist - educated, intelligent, physically capable, yet as there is only her and (for a short while) George Clooney in, it fails the Bechdel test.

I believe in figuring out what you think is right, and just get on with doing it. I think looking for validation from feminists is a fools errand. It’s simply too diverse a movement. There isn’t really a feminist high command that dispenses the right doctrine it is a perspective that views things from a woman’s perspective. You are only going to be able to approach feminism from a man’s perspective, and being cognisant of that is key.

If you walk the earth taking women as seriously as you do men, you probably aren’t at the top of the list of men who cause women problems. Rather than letting your nose get out of joint at the existence of the list, maybe take heart that there are feminists out there who have faith in men and that they can change.

“Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.” -Marcus Aurelius

@BertrandRussell

" If I was One of a class that committed over 90% of violent crime, for example, I would be thinking what I as an individual and a parent could do about it......"

Thank you (and all of mumsnet) for challenging men to think and act. Some of us are listening and trying.

"Men: don't abuse women." Seems such a difficult concept to grasp.

I don’t go into denial, start casting about for ways to blame other people, launch into a sustained campaign of whataboutery and say it’s not my problem.

This.

What you can also do in a confrontation, and is often more helpful and safer all round than actively challenging the perp, is to visibly support the victim. When I overheard someone using a racist slur against an asian couple walking behind me in Germany (because Germany is an absolute shithole for women and brown people alike), I turned around, said "hi, I'm wacademia, can I join you for a bit?", and walked beside them for a while. The message to the racists is "not all white people agree with you" and "you will have to hurt me to hurt these people", without even making eye contact with the racists.

I reckon I did the right thing because the lass had this look of shock and fesr on her face as I turned, and I don't think I caused it.

Why are you addressing me as though I'm male?

Because you defended conditional inaction on a thread where.we are discussing how male inaction about other men's oppression of women perpetuates men's oppression of women. I assumed from your stance that you were a man defending your own inaction. I gather from your response that I assumed incorrectly, and I apologise for that.

My point about men's privilege continues to apply to men.

“So are you aware of all issues then? Maybe there are areas where you fall down because you aren't aware of the issues.“

Of course there are. But if somebody tells me what the issues are, I listen and think about what I can do about it. I don’t go into denial, start casting about for ways to blame other people, launch into a sustained campaign of whataboutery and say it’s not my problem. l

That’s because it’s not really a question I can answer. I do my best. Whether you think that is enough is up to you. I am aware of falling short. I know many men who don’t even try. Are not even aware of the issues. And will resist the suggestion that they should take responsibility.

So are you aware of all issues then? Maybe there are areas where you fall down because you aren't aware of the issues.

I don't think any of us should asking for more from others than we are giving ourselves. When I know that I always stand up and fight for what is right, always call out discrimination or mistreatment then I will feel that I have the right to judge others for not doing it and demand that they do better but until then I'll concentrate on putting my own house in order first.

That’s because it’s not really a question I can answer. I do my best. Whether you think that is enough is up to you. I am aware of falling short. I know many men who don’t even try. Are not even aware of the issues. And will resist the suggestion that they should take responsibility.

Well if the number of times I get called a professionally offended lefty snowflake is anything to go by........

Not really answering the question though is it?

“Basically, do you walk the walk?”

Well if the number of times I get called a professionally offended lefty snowflake is anything to go by........