I'm not convinced that feminism has helped the women it should have?

Only right wing women have been saying it's not worth it and we've been ridiculing them for being religious prudes.

I have a few theories as to why right wing women think that way ,and none of them relate to the well being of women,especially not low class,poor,vulnerable women,the women without a voice.

@soapona are you ok with men thinking the same? Especially if they have kids from previous relationships?

So everyone would just get married in the end with people from the same economic status?

But maybe a feminist prerogative is saying no to men, no to their version of sex?

As a choice/option not a requirement though.

Or how about, Sakura, feminism that supports both women who want to sleep around AND women who don’t want to have sex, whether that’s complete abstention or only wanting sex within relationships etc? It’s fine to want loads of casual sex. It’s also fine to not want that. But it sounds rather like you regard sex at its core as something women only do for men’s benefit, rather than something women enjoy as individuals (not to mention that not all women have sex with men!)

Many of the things that I support is because of my background, I know what happens when abortion is banned or not freely available, I know what happens to "bastards" or unwed mothers, I know what happens when contraception is not freely available, I know what happens when there's a value put on virginity and a woman's/girl's worth is only her reputation and so o

Same. That's why we're feminists, no?

But radfems are going further now. They're saying, maybe the accusation of prude shouldn't be as feared and despised by women. I mean calling women prudes is a way of shaming them into having sex with men. And the accusation of whore is a way of shaming them into not having sex with men. So feminists thought they could maybe reject prude and reclaim whore, or something.
But maybe a feminist prerogative is saying no to men, no to their version of sex? It's just an idea that's all. And it coincides strangely with what right wing women have always known, I guess.

I'm left wing, slept around as a young woman, was very glad abortion and the morning after pill was available and so on. Thought "nobody can tell me I'm a whore, I own my sexuality, I want to beat the double standard that men create whereby they can sleep around and we can't. I was lucky in that I escaped without an abortion or an unwanted pregnancy. Today's radfems are wondering , is any of that worth it. Is the pleasure you might get worth any of it? Only right wing women have been saying it's not worth it and we've been ridiculing them for being religious prudes.

And sometimes I can help but think that it's due to the privileges of the western worlds, of having these freedoms,rights and choices and most importantly not having them denied when you needed them the most that some women can go to such lengths to criticise,dismiss and reduce them to prostitution/whores/transaction/failures etc.

It's all theoretical . I'm too emotional in my arguments and I own up to that. I'm emotional because in so many scenarios I can say "It could've been me" or worse "that was me".

Exactly yoursarcasm, I don’t think anyone on here would disagree that abusive men should not be mandated to have access to their children through family courts. But you can recognise there are severe failures in that system without saying, right, that’s it, NO man can have his parenting rights recognised. That’s extremism. We hear similar from people who think all Muslims are to blame for terrorism

I actually think that this is one of the most important issues. But because the issue only affects vulnerable mothers, it's not getting any of the attention it deserves in feminism because it affects the women without voices

I know that most threads on here are about trans rights and self ID, but I've been here a few years (still a newbie though) and this has been discussed, as well as many other injustices in court decisions ,how women are used and abused etc.

And I know many women on here would agree with you on that point. However many of the things you say either contradict themselves,are demeaning towards other women or promote an extreme view.

The thing is there is no woman on this earth dead or alive that made solely feminist choices in every single aspect of their lives. Especially not with the goals and theories moving from one extreme to the other .

Many of the things that I support is because of my background, I know what happens when abortion is banned or not freely available, I know what happens to "bastards" or unwed mothers, I know what happens when contraception is not freely available, I know what happens when there's a value put on virginity and a woman's/girl's worth is only her reputation and so on. More importantly I know what happens when women support and enforce that shit with no regard to their role as caretaker or responsible for safeguarding or whatever because that's the line in the sand and you dared to deviate from it(or worse you were pushed).

You hate men and want to deny them all rights but still want women to be reliant on them, however being reliant on them is also prostitution

dodgeballchamp your skill at précis is commendable !

Sakura literally nothing about your stance makes sense. You hate men and want to deny them all rights but still want women to be reliant on them, however being reliant on them is also prostitution? How about you have a long hard think about what you actually believe and come back when your views aren’t so cognitively dissonant

While your kind of feminism is what exactly? Dismissing the role fathers can and should play in a child’s upbringing and assuming that women have no agency over who they have sex with, and encouraging women being dependent on men while simultaneously saying marriage is prostitution?

That's a fair summary.

@soapona if anyone, male or female, is actively looking to financially profit from another human instead of striving to take care of their own needs, they are a sponger/parasite/golddigger, whatever you want to call it. Your “feminism” would do absolutely nothing for me as a woman. I’m failing to see how making a choice to take care of themselves and eliminate the need to rely on a man (about the most misogynist arrangement you can have) makes liberal and individualist women doormats. But then again your entire thread was started with a misogynist premise so I wouldn’t expect any kind of sensible response

my kind of feminism advocates for everyone, male and female, to take care of themselves first and foremost

Mine is just for women I'm afraid. And if you advocate for women, you're usually doing the best by children.
For example it was women who fought for the age of consent, and it was men who fought bitterly against it. Because the age of consent for children runs against male interests, apparently

YourSarcasmIsDripping

That is definitely a huge issue and a complete failure of the justice system when it comes to the welfare of women and children. Sadly it's prevalent both in family and criminal courts.

I'm glad you agree with me. It's very hard to find women who agree with me on this. I am arguing on another thread that I don't regard genderism to be the biggest issue that feminists face.
I actually think that this is one of the most important issues. But because the issue only affects vulnerable mothers, it's not getting any of the attention it deserves in feminism because it affects the women without voices

And let's also not forget that the reason marriage exists is so that men can be aware of and certain of paternity. If women were economically independent, why would it be so important to us that the father is aware of paternity? It would just be a nice privilege we would extend to the father, no? If he was a nice man.
It works like this for some women still. I have a friend who doesn't know who the father of her child is. This would be a lot more common if there wasn't so much social engineering obliging women to coparent with a father.

sakura my kind of feminism advocates for everyone, male and female, to take care of themselves first and foremost. While your kind of feminism is what exactly? Dismissing the role fathers can and should play in a child’s upbringing and assuming that women have no agency over who they have sex with, and encouraging women being dependent on men while simultaneously saying marriage is prostitution? I’m not sure even you know what the hell you’re blathering on about.

unlike liberal women who are being doormats

What all if them???

Because you said so?

The kind of feminism that has women pregnant and laboring in childbirth uncompensated so that a deadbeat dad can stay at home with the baby as she returns to work as the breadwinner, only to lose custody to him because father's rights

The situation of a woman returning to work full time and the father staying at home is unusual. It happens and I have seen posters on MN explain that this arrangement suited them well.

For example. I had a trainee solicitor who was married to a postman. The average wage for a postal delivery person is £16,000 to £18,000. The Law Society of Scotland recommended rates are £19,500 for first year trainees and £22,500 for second year trainees. Once she qualified- who knows what she might achieve. The post person's salary will only rise, if at all, by inflation. If they have children it makes sense for the whole family economically and her professionally to be the one in full time employment.

Why is a stay at home dad a "dead beat dad"? Isn't parenting one of the most important jobs on the planet? Other than breastfeeding there is no part of parenting which cannot be done by either parent.

And you have been told time and time again that your posts about "custody" and "fathers' rights are simply wrong.

Oh and as for "women pregnant and laboring in childbirth uncompensated" I don't know a single woman who feels her pregnancy was "uncompensated"

Everything is just a commercial transaction to you isn't?

There are loads of news items about courts awarding custody to the father against the protests of the battered wife, only for the dad to go on to kill the kids.

That is definitely a huge issue and a complete failure of the justice system when it comes to the welfare of women and children. Sadly it's prevalent both in family and criminal courts.

"Wife batterer" that was

There are loads of news items about courts awarding custody to the father against the protests of the battered wife, only for the dad to go on to kill the kids. Loads. I've been following this for years.

children's rights

Yeah we've gone over this below. People fighting for the wife battered to have access to his kids "because children's rights". Or for the free loader to keep the child he never birthed because father's children's rights

So women who have sex without being married are whores?

Umm well I think a lot of men still see it that way, but maybe thanks to some feminist efforts and the enthusiastic cheerleading of left wing men it is now socially acceptable to sleep with men outside of marriage, not too many of course, that would definitely make you a slag, but you can sleep with an acceptable amount. I think women probably know what is acceptable, it depends on their social circles, maybe their area, that sort of thing. You can also have an abortion if it goes tits up, again thanks to feminist efforts, and again thanks to the support of left wing men who wanted to ensure their continued access to free sex, and realized that women getting abortions would facilitate this

It apparently annoyed left wing men when they realized some feminists were starting to say no to sex, but they still wanted abortion to be available on demand. Apparently male left wing support for abortion rights fell dramatically when they understood some women were going to say no anyway

that has women pregnant and laboring in childbirth uncompensated so that a deadbeat dad can stay at home with the baby as she returns to work as the breadwinner, only to lose custody to him because father's rights.

1.children's rights
2.how often does that actually happen?

dodgeballchamp

I think yours is the type of feminism that has failed women, to be honest. This idea that we can ever be equal to men on male terms. The kind of feminism that has women pregnant and laboring in childbirth uncompensated so that a deadbeat dad can stay at home with the baby as she returns to work as the breadwinner, only to lose custody to him because father's rights.