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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I'm not convinced that feminism has helped the women it should have?

905 replies

soapona · 22/07/2019 13:18

I think on these discussion boards and on my Facebook I see women. They don't insist on marriage so they partner remains married to the ex for years and year, they live together and I wonder what will happen should the man die. I also see women with no security living with men with no intentions of marrying and having children. Women moving in with men too soon. In the days gone by women would and could have insisted on commitment. So now the position for women is worse hanging round waiting for a proposal.

I know they don't have to I'm fairly wealthy and a single parent so have choices and always have. I don't have a lot to gain from marriage.

I'm not sure things have got better for women we are expected to do a lot now two incomes are the usual for a mortgage instead of one in the olden days . So it's a given women work, do the most childcare do we honestly think these thing will change when the power imbalance is there from the beginning?

Also the women marrying "beneath themselves", that's not the correct term but a man earning less and not likely to come into a decent inheritance. What is the point in getting married there if you're a women? Perhaps if the woman is wealthy to avoid inheritance tax for her children but other than that I don't know?

So would woman not be happier marrying the same or above and insisting on marriage early on, like it was a given in days gone by?

Surely Women are now in very risky positions due to this living together in a man's property. I see much more domestic abuse these days. I believe the stats are much higher with non married couples. Surely living together unmarried has been caused by equality and feminism and the very people feminists has been trying to help they've hindered.

OP posts:
LordRudolphVII · 23/07/2019 20:53

How so? And also, I do think many women (feminists especially) are responsible for looking down on SAHMs. I could definitely find you an article or two within minutes.

Regarding breadwinners, are you saying men weren't then principle breadwinners in the past and that women were always as present in the workforce as they are now?

sakura184 · 23/07/2019 20:50

LordRudolphVII

Your history of man as breadwinner is so far off reality I actually find it painful to read.

LordRudolphVII · 23/07/2019 20:48

Not saying they get to enter women's spaces etc, just trying to understand their thinking and I'm not sure it's as convoluted as some of the previous suggestions propose (although I could of course be wrong, as could we both).

LordRudolphVII · 23/07/2019 20:46

But surely the neovagina is just a poor substitute for the real vagina they'd have had if they'd been born into the 'right' body in their eyes.

I'm sure most genuine transsexuals would change sex if it really were possible.

LordRudolphVII · 23/07/2019 20:44

From my observations, some of the reasons for believing it's viewed as a low status role come from the fact that we haven't yet adjusted society to allow women to have children without a significant effect on their career.

However, previously this was likely viewed as unnecessary as the man was nearly always the breadwinner and hence the wife didn't need to work.

From what I've read, I'm not sure monetary hardship was necessarily the driving factor behind women's desire to enter the workforce so much as the desire to prove that women are just as capable as men (which they are) and the goal of abolishing gender stereotypes. If anything, many couples are now worse off with the increased workforce and you often hear people complaining that both partners now need to work to afford a mortgage.

Personally, I see work as a necessary burden rather than a privilege. Most people wouldn't work if they didn't have too but they'd likely still have children. I think the value of work for many men is not intrinsic and traditionally it's valued because it's allows one to support their family which was the societal expectation men faced.

sakura184 · 23/07/2019 20:27

How so? I'm not being obtuse. I genuinely don't follow.

Because transwomen, enabled by the misogynistic medical establishment actually believe that the sum of a woman is a surgically created fuckhole neovagina that goes nowhere. Hmm 🤔 can't see the misogyny there. And those ones are the good guys. Those aren't even the AGPs

sakura184 · 23/07/2019 20:25

We need to value children and child raising, it should be at the very centre of society and we should never accept that it's a low status role. On the other hand it should not be the sum total of a woman's identity.

See I don't think men will ever let us have any of that to be honest although I agree that is a major feminist goal that has been ignored.

They won't let us have it because they're jealous, just a theory. They might have womb envy. Women don't understand that because we just take it all for granted. But Sonia Johnson said a pastor or a vicar once said to her "you get to have the babies, so we should get everything else" . Wonder how many men think that way

LordRudolphVII · 23/07/2019 20:24

Yeah but to believe that you have to believe women aren't real people in their own right

How so? I'm not being obtuse. I genuinely don't follow.

Imnobody4 · 23/07/2019 20:20

It's a fundamental mistake to think you can liberate people from their biology, that they need to be liberated from their biology I agree with a lot of what you say Goosefoot BUT isn't the entirety of human history about doing exactly this. If we were reduced to simple biology we wouldn't be the species we are today. First we develop tools, then complex languages etc etc. Our brains are the most significant thing and there are no pink and blue brains. We need to value children and child raising, it should be at the very centre of society and we should never accept that it's a low status role. On the other hand it should not be the sum total of a woman's identity. It's organising all society around children and the community that matters.

sakura184 · 23/07/2019 20:20

I just assumed that some trans people genuinely believe that they are effectively women in a man's body (illogical as that might be).

Yeah but to believe that you have to believe women aren't real people in their own right

I think the motivations of transmen are entirely different and I can't be bothered going into them here

LordRudolphVII · 23/07/2019 20:17

I just assumed that some trans people genuinely believe that they are effectively women in a man's body (illogical as that might be).

Could you be reading too much into it? (happy to accept I may not have the best understanding of it / don't really follow it that closely).

sakura184 · 23/07/2019 20:16

I think it was Dworkin maybe who pointed out that sexual abuse of girls by fathers was rampant in America and it was how that particular patriarchy kept women in line. Different patriarchies manifest in different ways.

sakura184 · 23/07/2019 20:14

Oh yes while we're talking about roles that have been taken from women can we knock the foolish "oldest profession" line on the head. Midwifery is the oldest profession, alongside probably some horticulture, not prostitution.

sakura184 · 23/07/2019 20:11

Following on from ISaySteadyOn, It is interesting that men seem to have a real problem with biology and an absolute angst at proving themselves so different from animals, even when, especially when they are acting solely on what we call animal and biological impulses. It's the ultimate in cognitive dissonance. I don't think medicine alone was the original realm of women: I think most of the underlying structures and cooperation involved in setting up civilizations belonged to women. Farming and many crafts have their roots in the 'gathering' role of women, not male 'hunting' roles. But men have to always consider themselves the important ones.

Well if there is a biological root to all of this then it would explain the weird cognitive dissonance that trans and their supporters have around women definitely not being whole, real humans, but (according to them) men definitely are, hence the fact that men get to keep their toilets while women's toilets are made unisex.

I just think jeez what kind of complexes do you all have if you're so obsessed with trying to make out women aren't properly human

LordRudolphVII · 23/07/2019 20:09

And my post clarifying that this is a hypothetical discussion and not necessarily my opinion:

I suppose my point is that there's a pretty wide span of what is considered 'socially acceptable' and I'd think carefully before imposing something on my child which wasn't deemed to be just because it was a choice I made (and I'm not talking about body hair or vegans - they were examples my friend gave).

I don't think this is a 'sexist comment about bushy armpits'. Confused

sakura184 · 23/07/2019 20:08

Sakura, if you believe that women are essentially better than men, then you shouldn't have a problem with men who think women are inferior. You might not agree, but you'd be okay with them having that opinion, would you?

Loads of them do have that opinion. This opinion of theirs has been enshrined into law, world over, into religion, into medicine, into "science" albeit bad science. What's your point?

LordRudolphVII · 23/07/2019 20:03

Well i would have posted it on the other thread but it was deleted I only skimmed what you posted before it [was deleted].

No it wasn't. People have been posting on it today.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3644396-Forcing-ideologies-onto-children

HelenaDove · 23/07/2019 19:58

Well i would have posted it on the other thread but it was deleted I only skimmed what you posted before it. Ive been posting on other subjects.

LordRudolphVII · 23/07/2019 19:42

And some posters actually agreed with my friend!

LordRudolphVII · 23/07/2019 19:40

I see what you're saying after rereading your post (I've been up since 2am) but it's a bit irrelevant as I've made no negative comments about women with hairy armpits as far as I can recall.

I was discussing my female friend's view that they can cause teenagers to get bullied and shouldn't necessarily be forced upon children. I clearly stated that it was a hypothetical discussion.

LordRudolphVII · 23/07/2019 19:34

I bet you expect women to go halves on the cost of a first date

so i take it you are happy to put your money where your mouth is and pay for everything

These two assumptions are at odds with each other so I'm a bit confused about them and also your point in general.

Strictly speaking, I think it should be split but I've always ended up paying for first dates as I don't want to be seen as a scrooge - people don't always stick to their idealistic principles and I noticed this too in the 'I'm a feminist but...' thread a while back where quite a few posters admitted to leaving all diy work to their husbands despite disavowing gender stereotypes.

In fact, there have been two very recent threads about first dates and I was shocked by how many women think men should pay for them (some posters even argued that men should 'pay for their company' despite women earning more in their 20s and most of their 30s!).

However, if I'm honest I think you're trying to derail to remove focus from the stats I posted above. I don't have an agenda like most on here. I make no excuses for what some men do and I'm happy to examine the statistics for both sexes.

YourSarcasmIsDripping · 23/07/2019 19:17

I'll just leave this here

I'm not convinced that feminism has helped the women it should have?
I'm not convinced that feminism has helped the women it should have?
LordRudolphVII · 23/07/2019 19:16

Lord Rudolph your comment about womens bushy armpits on another thread was sexist.

How so?

If I remember correctly, I was actually talking about whether certain things which may get a child bullied and thus cause enduring trauma (as early bullying often does) should be forced onto children before they are able to decide for themselves. Hairy armpits was just an example and was actually one which my female friend gave - I don't remember 'passing judgement' at any point.

What's that for to do with this discussion anyway? (or is it just an attempt to undermine?).

HelenaDove · 23/07/2019 19:06

Lord Rudolph your comment about womens bushy armpits on another thread was sexist.

I bet you expect women to go halves on the cost of a first date or living expenses though You often find that the only bits of feminism a lot of men are willing to get on board with are the bits that susuit their wallet.

Your comment about bushy armpits tells me you are all for gender stereotypes though so i take it you are happy to put your money where your mouth is and pay for everything in a relationship.

LordRudolphVII · 23/07/2019 18:53

First study found upon googling it:

The DHHS data shows that of children abused by one parent between 2001 and 2006,70.6% were abused by their mothers, whereas only 29.4% were abused by their fathers.

And of children who died at the hands of one parent between 2001 and 2006,70.8% were killed by their mothers, whereas only 29.2% were killed by their fathers.

www.breakingthescience.org/SimplifiedDataFromDHHS.php

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