I'm not convinced that feminism has helped the women it should have?

Laws need to be understood by all, not just those with PhDs in esoteric horseshit.

Excellent turn of phrase.

I should really leave this for the book group but as I'm reading RWW now something stood out for me.

She writes: "feminism is hated, because women are hated"

I think for me this sums up whether your political activism or whatever it is you're doing is actually feminism or if it's something entirely different

soapona

I'm thrilled that you're planning to read RWW, and maybe even join the reading group?
Thanks to the hard work of some French feminists it's available for free online as a pdf. Women, being quite poor on average, might find it difficult to buy books so it's great that we can access this stuff online now.

One of the things that I very much dislike about postmodernism and queer theory is that whenever you question it, someone will say that you don’t really understand it

If it was worth understanding they'd be able to express it in plain English without dressing it up in academic waffle.

Much of my annoyance with the whole movement and their 'most vulnerable evah' schtick lies in my years of working with the public and knowing that actual vulnerable people simply wouldn't have the first clue what they're wittering on about.

That makes them very, very dangerous. Laws need to be understood by all, not just those with PhDs in esoteric horseshit.

X post OP.

One of the things that I very much dislike about postmodernism and queer theory is that whenever you question it, someone will say that you don’t really understand it, and if you go away and read Latour or Butler or whoever it will all make sense.

It seems as if we’re getting into the same situation here. We should be able to explain our perspectives on here clearly and simply.

Sorry Bert

A good way to avoid being held accountable for your own words, and have to engage in a discussion about them, is both to just quote others, and simply dismiss criticism as a criticism against feminism itself and therefore use that as a shield... ‘ I can say whatever I want and call it feminism and respond to any and all criticism as par for the course for feminists...’ even if you aren’t actually basing your words in feminism- the liberation of women, not hatred of men FYI.

Ah. You said “these boards”, which confused me.

BertrandRussell not on this board, FWR, which is what I specified above.

sakura

I don't seek to avoid men's wrath or be liked. Nor do I seek, or particularly reject, the label 'feminist'.

I'm a pragmatist. I seek solutions to problems.

If the problem is porn, and I agree it is a problem then I seek to find practical solutions to that problem.

I am happy to discuss what those solutions might look like, but I will always feel the need to ask 'how do we get people on board with the proposed solution'? Because if we don't get people on board it simply won't work and we will have achieved nothing of worth.

That is why I find your more extreme views unhelpful, while absolutely defending your right to hold and express them.

“That’s very different from what you’re doing. You don’t find many defenders of porn here, it’s regularly discussed and in general very few who frequents these boards would support it.“

That is simply not true.
Mumsnet is amazingly pro porn! To the extent that somebody like me, who is with Bindel on this topic, sometimes avoids a thread about porn because it’s too depressing to see all the women either not caring about or not believing in the exploitation of women in the industry, not caring or not believing in the damage it does to individuals and society and only caring about whether or not it counts as “cheating” if their male partner watches it.

Use your own words to respond to those who have taken the time to respond to you. Or can’t you do that?

From his article:

Criticism from women is somehow more dangerous than a male- created nuclear holocaust: evidently only men have the right to drive us onward to our extinction.

While men have long enjoyed attacking ungrateful women as “man haters,” the epithet seems more than a little bit silly when transposed onto the printed page, something demanded by the burgeoning market for so-called Men’s Studies materials. It certainly lacks the gravitas required to reflect the widespread injury and social disadvantages that many white males believe they endure on a daily basis. Thus a more scientific-sounding term was needed for “the hatred of men” and antifeminists crafted one out of their own perverted imagination of antiquity: misandry.

As long as you don't go all the way

What does that mean, exactly? Be specific. So if we don’t think all men are rapists and all marriage is prostitution, we aren’t doing all the way with feminism? Is that what you’re saying? What is your motivation here exactly?

It gets a bit tricky when you criticize their porn. They really don't like that one. You'll lose a few male supporters if you go there. And on it goes.

That’s very different from what you’re doing. You don’t find many defenders of porn here, it’s regularly discussed and in general very few who frequents these boards would support it.

And on it goes to where? Making blatant statements that all marriage is prostitution, you’re guaranteed to get raped if you go out etc is not feminism, it just isn’t. It’s hyperbole, extreme and not true.

I’d again, love to see you respond to those who have given long responses to some of your comments, responses you previously asked for and are now ignoring.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers

What I mean is, you might think you can avoid men's wrath by being a little bit of a manhater feminist, but not too much of a feminist, that sort of thing. As long as you don't go all the way (as I clearly have , even though I know plenty of women who have gone further than me) the you'll be safe, liked. And even a few enlightened men will be able to agree with your feminism.

It gets a bit tricky when you criticize their porn. They really don't like that one. You'll lose a few male supporters if you go there. And on it goes.

I tell a lie. There has been one man who has contributed to feminism. He wrote an article about 13 years ago. His name is Richard Leader.
There you go. Can't accuse me of saying all men.
Here is his article. It's called "Misandry: the dictionary of fools"

http://adonismirror.com/pdf/10152006leaderrmisandryanddmisanthropy.pdf

Every man I've ever come across has loathed feminism with a passion.

You'd have to define 'feminism' first to make sweeping statements like this. As can be seen from this thread feminists don't even agree as to what feminism is so why would men?

Back in the real world the men of my acquaintance seem quite happy with 'equal pay for equal work' and for women to own property, vote, be allowed to pursue whatever careers they wish. There may be some grumbling around some issues but there is from women too, eg reproductive rights.

Feminism does not need to be palatable to men, or indeed women as a whole, you are free to argue your corner regardless of whether it is palatable to others. But, bottom line is that most women like men. That isn't to say most women haven't had bad experiences of some men, or don't recognise that men as a class are potentially dangerous to women as a class, but you will never get people on side with extreme arguments (eg marriage is prostitution) because they just don't work for most people.

I’d love to see you respond to StopThePlanet but I’m not holding my breathe. Conversation which involves responding to the actual words someone is using, doesn’t appear to be your thing.

Are feminists here to entertain men, or even make feminism palatable to men? Every man I've ever come across has loathed feminism with a passion.

What the fuck are you ranting about now? Totally irrelevant to his remark on your digesting hatred spouted all over these boards. I feel sorry for you. I do. You’ve gone so far beyond feminism and you lack the self awareness to see it.

Not all men loath feminism. A lot. Not all. That’s the problem with your statements, you insist that it is absolutely all men. When others talk in terms like ‘men’ we don’t specify all. We still get accused of meaning that, probably because of people like you who actually do.

Feminism isn’t meant to be nice. But it’s also not meant to be hateful. Which you are.

I mean that it is not realistic that people live as if they were a single parent while in a relationship.

I don’t believe it is realistic that women (or indeed men) can enter into relationships and have children without becoming dependent on each other. Very few people can raise children and hold down a job without support from other people. And yes, there are plenty of single parents manage it, but getting out of an abusive relationship is incredibly difficult, because you are attempting to get out of an interdependent relationship while the other person seeks to prevent you doing so.

And it's because men loathe feminism that some women say oh no my feminism is nice feminism, my feminism isn't man hating, you'd like my feminism because it's reasonable: not realizing that men hate all feminism, all of it.