I'm not convinced that feminism has helped the women it should have?

I might start a thread about marriage being prostitution, so I can lay out my thoughts, and the theory, along with quotes from feminists I admire. I'm not doing it on this thread. I can't be arsed with the name calling

I can't be bothered JessicaWakefieldSV . Just because I can't be bothered doesn't mean I don't have a sound argument that marriage is prostitution.

I can't be bothered because you've berated and harangued me about not all men incessantly, and I don't even know why, or what for .

So if you're doing that you're not going to enter into a discussion about marriage being prostitution in good faith

Who needs patriarchy when you have toxic, hateful and disruptive elements within the feminist movement?
It makes you wonder whether certain members are deliberate plants to make us look foolish and crazed.

No no. Respond to what others have said. That’s what a discussion is, just repeating the same thoughts of your own is not a discussion. Are you here for one or just to stir?

Marriage is prostitution... well that is an ill-conceived perspective. The idea that anyone would continuously have sex that wasn't enjoyable for them is mind blowing to me - whether in a relationship, single, or prostitute (hate the term). I wouldn't do it - I wouldn't sell my existence for a house, a car, or for all of the money (or insert whatever) in the world. (I was homeless at 16 and a survivor - there is always another solution beyond fucking your way to comfort - unless trafficked of course).

I don't need anything from DH but as I stated previously his presence enriches my life (in many ways), and I quite like having a partner with which I can communicate without words. We read each other's cues and respect boundaries as not doing so would be a deal breaker i.e. transgressions require discussion, reflection, and closing discussion. We love each other deeply, we laugh heartily, and sometimes cry in happiness as well as sadness - we hold each for no reason and for all the reasons.

Having a healthy marriage can mean different things to different people depending on their needs/desires. Because I've never looked to a partner (male or female) to fulfill my needs I see the assertion of marriage=prostitution as seeking to diminish mature partnership in order to discredit those of us that create our happiness and enjoy sharing our lives with a partner not based on need. There is no exploitation here, there is no need to stay, but there is a partnered commitment to being happy as individuals and enriching life for each other (and our 'team' - four of us if you count the dogs).

Asserting this ridiculous claim that marriage=prostitution is seriously incompetent, ill-informed, and emotionally unintelligent. Dworkin doesn't have a clue in this regard (as evidenced by her writings), and quoting her writings like they are a bible of sorts isn't doing you any favours

I have known/do know many women (some family, some acquaintances, some friends) that feel men and marriage are responsible for their stations in life. None of them were forced into their marriages or got pregnant and felt they had to get married. They made decisions in the US or UK to get married and built their lives based on what they believed would make them happy (another person, financial stability via another's efforts, etc.). Their biggest mistake is depending on others for their happiness. You are responsible for creating your happiness, you are responsible for your education, you are responsible for your earning potential/career (beyond pay gap, opportunity gap, pregnancy prejudice), and if your body is able you decide whether or not to have children. These are your choices, your responsibilities - if you can't raise a child without partner support you may want to reconsider being a parent as there is no guarantee that the partner you marry today will be the same person in 10/20/30/40yrs (or be alive or maybe you won't be alive to raise them - you rarely can predict tragedy). I'm not saying don't have children, I'm saying ensure prior to having kids that you can provide for them and access non-partner support sufficient for the health, safeguarding, and stability of the possible child(-

If you hate men because of your choices it has nothing to do with men, it has to do with choices you made that you dislike/hate. Giving men more power by making them the writers of your story is a great disservice to all women. Write your own story, enjoy sex (if you wish) monogamous or not, and forget about blaming yourself - just make better choices (picking the wrong partner is a choice you make even if you were misled).

Not only heteros get married (I'm Bi, could have entered into any number of commitment types or avoided monogamy altogether) and many of my married friends are lesbians (married to other female lesbians). How do you reconcile hetero "prostitute" marriage and homosexual marriage?

Reposted ^^

I do think marriage is prostitution yes.

Imnobody4

I agree that the GRA stuff has brought different kinds of women together . And I agree with you about climate .

But we aren't going to get anywhere if I say men have destroyed the world, turned it into a nuclear shit tip with frankenfoods and frankenseeds- which all happened on men's watch and someone pipes up with not all men. Like what does that argument even mean?

sakura184

Will you respond to the posters Re your assertion all marriage is prostitution?

Imnobody4 well I think the point of certain new posters to FWR is specifically to cause division and derail threads.

It doesn't matter if I think all men or if I think not all men. Why is this being argued?

All men benefit from patriarchy, this we know

Nobody disagreed with that. That’s not what you’ve been saying all over FWR is it.

Do you know I'm getting tired of this paralysis by analysis. How did patriarchy start, who is the purist feminist of all , what a total failure all the feminists who came before were.
We're facing the biggest threat to humanity ever. Climate change is going to have a devasting effect on women. AI being developed with male bias which will wipe out many of the jobs women do. Surrogacy and prostitution becoming not just normalised but celebrated.
The coming together of women in the face of the GRA is the best thing I've seen of feminism since the 3rd wave took over. That is because it is targeted and unites all kinds of women. Reading polemics from the 60s and 70s is not going to win the battles around the corner. We need to strategise and build coalitions. How do we make sure the internet represents the interests of women. Ffs TRAs have managed to gain more of a foothold in all our institutions than feminists.

Also, all men what?

I said I've never come across a single man who helped feminism then I remembered there has been one, so one there

All men benefit from patriarchy, this we know

We want to keep all men out of women's bathrooms, I think that's generally understood on here.

But even if I did think all men, so what?

Well, it’s not true so you’ll get some pushback on nonsense here. Care to respond yet to the posts from earlier which did as you asked and responded re marriage is prostitution? Or can’t you do that without quoting from a book?

So yes - it is ALL MEN!

No it isn’t and nothing in your last comment convinced me of that, nor my personal life experience.

I’m a Māori wahine and have no interest in hierarchies of oppression. And I’m not sure if you are genuinely saying all men call out racism or not, but that’s completely and utterly false. I know it is.

Erm didn't I reference Richard Leader's article as proof I don't think all men.
But even if I did think all men, so what?

But then there are these big, system, problems, or problems where there doesn't seem to be a clear approach, or things that people, including women, disagree on, or things feminists disagree about. Those things are always going to be a lot harder to address, and mistakes and misdirection are more likely.

Yes exactly. Some things are so complex we will have to keep altering our approaches as we go and may go backwards before we go forwards again, and that is frustrating.

Jess
"No sorry you don't get to dismiss it as #notallmen scenario when the poster everyone is responding to has literally said for days now, all men. Said it repeatedly. So no, not relevant Mae"

Tell me how many men tolerate everyday sexism and tell me how men tolerate everyday racism.

Every man would call out himself all racism or if he is afraid, will report racism to others who can call it out!

If your answer is that racism is worse then sexism - then your moral compass is calibrated wrong.

If a woman's casual or instinctive punch of the fist was strong enough to hurt most men - Sexism would have died down years ago.

Because women can not punch a man in fun way that would physically do some unintentional real damage, is the reason women keep having to suffer everyday sexism.

So yes - it is ALL MEN!

Here is another thing that has failed:

Trying to win points by dismissing arguments by saying things like "notallmen" or "whataboutery". Both tend to be invoked when someone can't actually speak to the point being made. Pointing out problems with the basic structure or facts of a claim is a perfectly valid approach, you have to show why it's not valid in a particular instance.

JessicaWakefieldSV

That's an example of a very concrete kind of social change, isn't it? Those kinds of initiatives have often been really successful. There aren't really many people who come right out and support domestic abuse, it's generally something that we seem to agree on as a society, and we see that there are some concrete actions we can take, and people took them.

But then there are these big, system, problems, or problems where there doesn't seem to be a clear approach, or things that people, including women, disagree on, or things feminists disagree about. Those things are always going to be a lot harder to address, and mistakes and misdirection are more likely.

What chaps my hide is the idea that talking about these issues is somehow hating women, or not allowed because it discredits feminism. It's really just a way for people who like those approaches to enforce a nodebate stance.

Speaking of which, that kind of thing, and personal attacks, and pulling oppression rank, are probably some of the worst features feminism picked up over the years and now its being used against it. I hope it makes for some self-reflection on the use of those kinds of tactics.

No sorry you don’t get to dismiss it as #notallmen scenario when the poster everyone is responding to has literally said for days now, all men. Said it repeatedly. So no, not relevant Mae

lord

Oh FFS!

Why are you here? - Start a new movement called NotAllMenism and go start fighting misogynist men. #notallmen

Men have a track record for not being bothered about women's opinion and support so I am sure you and other men will get this new movement off the ground - if you really want!

Stop Men killing and raping women on a mass scale!

Men do not need to get along with women to achive this first

I mean that it is not realistic that people live as if they were a single parent while in a relationship.

Yes, I think this is very true and extends more generally as well. Human beings are interdependent upon each other. It's unwise to underestimate this, and unhealthy to try and exist outside of it.

It is true though that as individuals we have some level of personal responsibility for our own choices, and to engage in solving our own problems. There are certain kinds of internal problems that no one else can really solve for us, and some decisions have consequences we can't escape, and it doesn't help to try. Sometimes bad things happen, sometimes we make the wrong decisions, we can't control other people.

Back to the OP.

My mum is in her 70’s. She spent 26 years with my abusive father. When he started, there were no places for her to go. Nobody she told, including doctors, did a thing and she felt too weak and poor to leave with 4 young kids and a serious endometriosis condition. She only left at aged 50 because feminists had worked hard to enable women like her to leave, both by providing places to go and social welfare to support, along with of course, having conversations both public and private that changed the way she thought about herself. Amazingly she was quite strong and feminist in many ways, but as an abused women her confidence and self worth meant she did not extend the kindness to herself she extended to others. My point is, to say feminism has done ‘nothing’ or not helped the ‘women it’s supposed to’, to me, is a lie. It’s demonstrably false. There are areas we seem to have created a harder life for ourselves, with expectations to want both a career and family and the burden falling to us in the main, but that doesn’t mean it’s a total failure. I think it means we see where we can improve and are not willing to keep settling.

Today, this same previously abused women who felt she didn’t deserve better than to be a racist man’s punching bag, stood by herself by the All Blacks bus, on her way to work as she’s still working full time in her 70’s, she stood and gave a large group of very rich, very tall, huge scary looking famous rugby men, a long lecture about the impact of domestic violence and how they are contributing to it by including and excusing rugby players who abuse. On her own. Once upon a time she didn’t have the courage to stand up to one sad weak man.

Don’t tell me feminism failed her. Please.

I don't hate feminists. I'm just frustrated sometimes that some people seem to want to use as a wedge to drive between the sexes. Of course, there are uncomfortable truths which need to be faced but I sense that some people don't actually want men and women to get on.