Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I'm not convinced that feminism has helped the women it should have?

905 replies

soapona · 22/07/2019 13:18

I think on these discussion boards and on my Facebook I see women. They don't insist on marriage so they partner remains married to the ex for years and year, they live together and I wonder what will happen should the man die. I also see women with no security living with men with no intentions of marrying and having children. Women moving in with men too soon. In the days gone by women would and could have insisted on commitment. So now the position for women is worse hanging round waiting for a proposal.

I know they don't have to I'm fairly wealthy and a single parent so have choices and always have. I don't have a lot to gain from marriage.

I'm not sure things have got better for women we are expected to do a lot now two incomes are the usual for a mortgage instead of one in the olden days . So it's a given women work, do the most childcare do we honestly think these thing will change when the power imbalance is there from the beginning?

Also the women marrying "beneath themselves", that's not the correct term but a man earning less and not likely to come into a decent inheritance. What is the point in getting married there if you're a women? Perhaps if the woman is wealthy to avoid inheritance tax for her children but other than that I don't know?

So would woman not be happier marrying the same or above and insisting on marriage early on, like it was a given in days gone by?

Surely Women are now in very risky positions due to this living together in a man's property. I see much more domestic abuse these days. I believe the stats are much higher with non married couples. Surely living together unmarried has been caused by equality and feminism and the very people feminists has been trying to help they've hindered.

OP posts:
StopThePlanet · 25/07/2019 16:33

sakura184

I think soapona gave a good outline as to some of the reasons I think marriage is prostitution, and that was just off the top of her head

Hey nothing against the OP but a great deal of what she said sounds incredibly disconnected from non-wealthy people's reality. Honestly I spend enough time dealing with insulated wealthy individuals with huge inheritances in my day-to-day; and she's barely engaged in the thread. You on the other hand have spent countless hours writing posts (many copy pasted quotes as well) as evidenced by the pages and pages and pages of your text so I want to hear your reasons because in all of those pages you actually haven't stated why you think marriage=prostitution.

Again, stop hiding behind other people's words and make your own points. I'm asking you a direct question yet again.

Imnobody4 · 25/07/2019 16:27

MaeWest1890
It doesn't matter a jot how we apportion blame it's what practical steps we take now and if that is all a feminist has to offer, blame, I don't think we deserve the real rights we've achieved in my lifetime.

Endofthedays · 25/07/2019 16:25

Sakura, how do you think you would handle things if you had a son?

MaeWest1890 · 25/07/2019 16:25

"Would Maggie thatcher became prime minister without marry up?"

Not 100% I understand the question!

I think she had to be married - just like Ed M was "forced" to in 2011.

General comment regarding causing division here (MN) -

Sorry but when tweeter bans mostly women for saying just simple things like men are more violent then women.

Causing division is not the actual intention when saying men hate women here.

Either from personal experience or objective worldwide statistical evidence or both.

Stating this should NOT be causing a division at least not on FWR!

sakura184 · 25/07/2019 16:22

Also, prayers of deliverance and psychoanalysis are pretty patriarchal ways to try and humiliate a woman for having an opinion

JessicaWakefieldSV · 25/07/2019 16:21

Use your own words. You’re constantly deflecting to others.

sakura184 · 25/07/2019 16:18

I think soapona gave a good outline as to some of the reasons I think marriage is prostitution, and that was just off the top of her head

CuriousaboutSamphire · 25/07/2019 16:18

It's a transaction after all. You have a very, very old fashioned view of marriage.

These, in the Western world, days it is commonly accepted that it is an equal partnership... so if I am prostituting myself for DH then he is my very own gigolo.

You do know they removed the word 'obey' from the comon order of service?

StopThePlanet · 25/07/2019 16:16

Sakura

You made a request of me to respond to your point about marriage equaling prostitution and I did once I addressed your rampant Dworkin quotations.

I gave sound insight into my long-term relationship in order to give a picture to my points, to illustrate why I believe that the marriage=prostitution assertion is incorrect.

Just simply saying that you believe marriage is prostitution is not engaging in a conversation and quoting another's words is not actually engaging in the conversation. I think I made it very clear that Dworkin's choices in marriage are of no interest to me as she does not have a clear perspective on what marriage is about. I'm interested in your response or your reasons why you believe marriage equals prostitution.

StopThePlanet · 25/07/2019 16:11

sakura184

I can't be bothered JessicaWakefieldSV . Just because I can't be bothered doesn't mean I don't have a sound argument that marriage is prostitution.

Jessica was asking you to respond to me. Even against my better judgement I was kind to you albeit through a lens of no bullshit love because I see the pain in your posts. You sound like a more extreme version of me at 16/17... of which I see the error of my immature perspective.

Your lack of self-awareness will not help you work out the sins of your past, the past transgressions against you, and it will not help you build a strong and healthy relationship with your new girlfriend. Heed my words holding in anger and pain like you are is not healthy it will destroy you from the inside out. When you spend so much time hating other people it eventually converts into hate of yourself.

We have to take responsibility for our own choices (the freedom to make choices includes the responsibility owning those choices) - that's one of the many things feminism has given to those of us behind the blood sweat and tears of our foremothers. Choices and their responsibility are a gift from our foremothers - to shirk it is to spit in the face of feminism.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 25/07/2019 16:11

I don’t understand why its marriage that’s prostitution

A good friend of mine has been with her partner for about the same amount of time as me and has children...she gave up work and went back very very part time when they were in school.

Everything nearly the same as me except for the piece of paper and wedding photos

So she is a prostitute as well yeah?

Or is it just the marriage certificate which went wrong for me?

Not that it actually matters Grin

ClosdesMouches · 25/07/2019 15:57

well I think the point of certain new posters to FWR is specifically to cause division and derail threads

Glad it isn't just me. I'm actually finding that certain threads are becoming unreadable because of this. I keep opening this one and trying to avoid certain posts.
I've always been against MN introducing a 'block' or 'ignore poster' function but right now I wish it had one.

Imnobody4 · 25/07/2019 15:57

soapona So what's the difference between marriage as prostitution and slavery?

soapona · 25/07/2019 15:52

@MaeWest1890 Would Maggie thatcher became prime minister without marry up?

OP posts:
soapona · 25/07/2019 15:49

@Imnobody4

Do you think marriage is prostitution

I see marriage as a legal process. I can see the argument why someone would say it's prostitution. I believe some men think they own you after marriage and like being a slave you take their name. I believe it can be seen as prostitution. It's a transaction after all. That's does not make it bad though some transactions work well for women.

OP posts:
MaeWest1890 · 25/07/2019 15:45

Goose
"The idea that women have has no influence of advantage or control over how the "world is run" is just bs, no matter how many times people say patriarchy."

To my mind this is case of "path of least resistance".

Women have supported and helped run the world with very great effect - Thatcher. However, the stage is the Patriarchal Society.

In all countries, the women have not been the ones "setting the agenda".

Please give any real examples, if you do not agree.

Goosefoot · 25/07/2019 15:23

But we aren't going to get anywhere if I say men have destroyed the world, turned it into a nuclear shit tip with frankenfoods and frankenseeds- which all happened on men's watch and someone pipes up with not all men. Like what does that argument even mean?

The problem with this isn't "notallmen" it's that actually its been all people.

The idea that woen have has no influence of advantage or control over how the "world is run" is just bs, no matter how many times people say patriarchy.
Women have been quite happy to be involved in environmental destruction, the drive a heck of a lot of consumption, and they do it for the same reason everyone does, they like it.

Imnobody4 · 25/07/2019 15:20

Sakura184
No one will discuss with me, you're all being mean. Several people give their views - you ignore. When challenged you refuse to engage because of meanness. Then threaten us with another thread where you can show how intellectually superior you are, and how you are right definitely, no discussion needed.

Just because I can't be bothered doesn't mean I don't have a sound argument that marriage is prostitution.
You have no arguments that are new or revelatory.

Imnobody4 · 25/07/2019 15:12

Soapona
Do you think marriage is prostitution?

MaeWest1890 · 25/07/2019 15:10

In UK???

Are you saying in 2019 in a UK Government Office there is same amount of Everyday Racism as there is Everyday Sexism?

Equally towards men and women or just women?

Apologies and very sorry for your mum.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 25/07/2019 15:05

She gained strength from other women firstly creating a place for women like her to go, and secondly from other women changing the conversation and casual acceptance. That’s feminism. Just because everything’s not perfect, does not mean it’s a failure. We’re not done are we. So why make any conclusion about feminism when women are still out there fighting.

Can I ask you OP, what are you doing? What does your own feminist advocacy look like?

soapona · 25/07/2019 15:02

@JessicaWakefieldSV I still don't know if feminism has failed your mother? So your mother was young vulnerable and battered, over the years she eventually gained the strength to leave. This scenario still goes on worse still it's unmarried couples with no legal protection for the mother and paternal rights to the unmarried father when he turns up to sign the birth certificate. Pre 00 a man could sign the certificate and have no rights. What rights do women now have? This is still going on although we have some wonderful women who set up refuges to escape. Great awareness into abuse but I don't see that as the woman's lib movement. It's the woman lib who push for equality who I think make situation worse and then men cherry pick the bits they like while good submissive go along with it thinking it's progress.

OP posts:
JessicaWakefieldSV · 25/07/2019 14:58

But even if the man was not sexist himself, he still does not call out sexism.

More should, but plenty do. Are you a WOC? If not you should listen to those that are and have a better idea of what gets more support. Racism gets called out in mainstream media and by brands, more than sexism does. Much more. But in everyday life, I don’t think there’s much difference. My mum still gets a lot of racist crap and she works in a government department.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 25/07/2019 14:55

Well that’s awfully convenient. I conclude you don’t have an argument of your own and have likely been doing more reading than you have listening to women and men in real life. I am sure most of whatever thread you start, if you do, will include quite a lot of quotes Grin it’s a shame you can’t engage using your own independent thoughts.

Sakura, the post I quoted above isn’t mine. You don’t have to engage with me, but you’ve engage with nobody really at all. It’s repeat repeat repeat.

MaeWest1890 · 25/07/2019 14:52

Should I have clarified -

every man calls out racism - provided he himself (and / or all the men around him) were not racist!

But even if the man was not sexist himself, he still does not call out sexism.

Sorry!

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.