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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I'm not convinced that feminism has helped the women it should have?

905 replies

soapona · 22/07/2019 13:18

I think on these discussion boards and on my Facebook I see women. They don't insist on marriage so they partner remains married to the ex for years and year, they live together and I wonder what will happen should the man die. I also see women with no security living with men with no intentions of marrying and having children. Women moving in with men too soon. In the days gone by women would and could have insisted on commitment. So now the position for women is worse hanging round waiting for a proposal.

I know they don't have to I'm fairly wealthy and a single parent so have choices and always have. I don't have a lot to gain from marriage.

I'm not sure things have got better for women we are expected to do a lot now two incomes are the usual for a mortgage instead of one in the olden days . So it's a given women work, do the most childcare do we honestly think these thing will change when the power imbalance is there from the beginning?

Also the women marrying "beneath themselves", that's not the correct term but a man earning less and not likely to come into a decent inheritance. What is the point in getting married there if you're a women? Perhaps if the woman is wealthy to avoid inheritance tax for her children but other than that I don't know?

So would woman not be happier marrying the same or above and insisting on marriage early on, like it was a given in days gone by?

Surely Women are now in very risky positions due to this living together in a man's property. I see much more domestic abuse these days. I believe the stats are much higher with non married couples. Surely living together unmarried has been caused by equality and feminism and the very people feminists has been trying to help they've hindered.

OP posts:
deydododatdodontdeydo · 25/07/2019 21:41

To be clear, it's not "you having his baby" like you're doing him a favour.

deydododatdodontdeydo · 25/07/2019 21:41

having his baby and/or living with him.

Please explain why it is "his" baby.
This is sexist bollocks, and frankly infuriates me. It's not his baby.

Goosefoot · 25/07/2019 21:36

People pair bond because they have hormones designed to make that happen. They also do it because they think it is good for their children to have a father. And because they value the commitment as an important thing in itself.

sakura184 · 25/07/2019 21:29

I just think if you want to have sex with a man you'd just do it wouldn't you? Same with having his baby and/or living with him.

why Is a transaction necessary?

This is the feminist viewpoint that the OP is talking about, that has got a lot of women into hot water, because now they're doing the wifework without any legal protections, and women are also expected to work outside the home as well as in the home. So RWW understandably hate feminism.

Just because I understand the RWW point of view, doesn't change my opinion that marriage is prostitution. Feminists were right but they didn't have a strategy that's all

Bourbonbiccy · 25/07/2019 20:49

I completely agree with
Women got the right to vote, to marry who they want and divorce who they want. They got the right to work and have their financial independence. They got the right to abortion and birth control.

I really don't think it can be sensibly argued this is not a good thing.

The issue I have is the latest movement that says because women are equal we should expect the same from women than we do from men

I agree with this to the point of women have to contribute equally financially to the home or they are regressing things for women.
Everything needs to be 50/50 in every single element of the relationship or you are regressing things for women.

But it does not seemed to be recognised that all these supposed feminist are trying to stigmatise women who are making a choice and have a very loving respectful relationship that works in the dynamic they have set.

These types of feminist are giving men this supposed power that they simply don't have in these such relationships.
So by drumming this sort of talk, it is peddling the idea of these "powerful men" are ruling the roost of these poor little women,which is counter productive and pushing the idea of a powerful men alive.

When the women in these relationship are actually promoting and teaching their children the complete opposite. They are teaching they don't have to earn the same to have a decision in the home, they have a say in their own lives without having a comparable job title and deserve a seat at the table of any discussion being made about their family despite not having the same bank balance.

LassOfFyvie · 25/07/2019 20:40

The issue I have is the latest movement that says because women are equal we should expect the same from women than we do from men (basically financially in their input for the family which used to be squarelynin thé somewhere of men) whilst not expecting ANY change (or just lip service) from men in the women sphere (all the child rearing, housekeeping etc....)

Who is "not expecting any change". What you are referring to is the personal arrangements within a relationship.

There are no rules saying men can't do these things or that women should not expect men to do these things.

BertrandRussell · 25/07/2019 20:35

“But this is taking the thread even further from the OP so I'm not going to comment further.“

Colour me surprised.

Myriade · 25/07/2019 20:21

@soapona I think it has helped on some level and certainly at the start. It would disingenuous to say that it hasn’t.
Women got the right to vote, to marry who they want and divorce who they want. They got the right to work and have their financial independence. They got the right to abortion and birth control.
As a pp said about their mum, all that HAS made a positive impact on women.

The issue I have is the latest movement that says because women are equal we should expect the same from women than we do from men (basically financially in their input for the family which used to be squarelynin thé somewhere of men) whilst not expecting ANY change (or just lip service) from men in the women sphere (all the child rearing, housekeeping etc....)
THAT for me is what has made things worse in the last 15~20 years.

The rest such as care in childbirth etc... just hasn’t changed. And it’s just very recently that medical research is starting to take women into account when testing medication etc...

Bottom line though is that there is no point expecting men to take responsibility and change things all on their own etc...
Change will, imo, come from the family and women upholding their boundaries and expecting to be treated with respect.
I also think this will be the work of several generations, just like it is with racism (which btw many women are also very bad at too)

LordRudolphVII · 25/07/2019 20:19

I was talking about the UK - given the population size of the US, you'd expect there to be more incidents in absolute figures. But this is taking the thread even further from the OP so I'm not going to comment further.

Endofthedays · 25/07/2019 19:26

Bertrand, maternity care, health and safety at work, child benefit and tax credits.

deydododatdodontdeydo · 25/07/2019 19:24

monogamy still applies. Men insist on this because it's very difficult for them to ensure paternity.

Yes, insistence on monogomy is all down to men.
If it wasn't for them meanies forcing us to be monogamous, we could happily sleep around as nature intended Hmm

BertrandRussell · 25/07/2019 19:23

“I believe feminism has not helped ordinary women.“

Well, apart from voting, abortion, employment rights, not being raped within marriage, domestic violence refuges.......what have feminists ever done for us?

soapona · 25/07/2019 19:12

@LassOfFyvie

I believe feminism has not helped ordinary women. Frankly it's left woman confused. Is life better? What has it done to society? What has it done to men and their mental health? It's definitely is a factor in the breakdown of families. It definitely is factor with the increase in co habiting. We now have the expectation of working if you have children, it's not a choice. Not great for some women. We are in world surrounded by objectifying woman no way do men consider us equals.

OP posts:
MaeWest1890 · 25/07/2019 19:11

lord
?? You response was to killings!

Abuse and killing are two different things.

"About every 16 hours, a woman is shot and killed by a former or current partner in the USA."

This does not include strangers or co-workers - in just one country where records are accurate and public.

Have some heart or shame !

PLease lookup statistics of reported and unreported abuse and rapes in the UK AND AROUND THE WORLD which go unpunished.

Recently a woman who reported a man to the Police was fined for wasting Police time, she was later killed by that man.

Police do not tolerate "hate" speach against trans but hate speach agsinst women is tolerated - there is just too much of it so Police let it go unpunished officially

So in additon to above there is rampant unpunished physical abuse and killing of women by men.

Shame on you.

Goose
Thank you for qualified defence.

To the OP
sorry! but lord's other posts and pleading for women and men to get along here, was triggering to me.

I'll see my self out.

Endofthedays · 25/07/2019 19:09

Well we’re not allowed to call people trolls on MN.

I was being a little hyperbolic, but it’s a hyperbolic thread.

ClosdesMouches · 25/07/2019 19:07

I've been on MN for over 12 years and never been called a troll before!
But the thread has now deteriorated to the point where it's time for me to hide it.

StopThePlanet · 25/07/2019 19:03

I've never been called a troll before! Well, butter my biscuits!

I have no idea how trying to parse out this marriage=prostitution idea that the OP is also engaged in is trolling.

If you want to get back to the original OP all I can say is that it sounds like it comes from a really insulated place. And I think OP needs to learn about feminism and gain a rudimentary understanding before ever making a claim that feminism hasn't helped the women that it 'should' have. Conjecture isn't fact.

Cool you guys do you. I get to go explain to a wealthy woman why she can't spend the funds of a company with impunity that she owns with another woman (who isn't wealthy). Takers gonna take.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 25/07/2019 18:57

You can be an ass without being a troll

Thats not helping

But i do think the thread is beyond resuscitation

Goosefoot · 25/07/2019 18:50

I think you have to be insincere to be a troll, don't you? You can be an ass without being a troll.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 25/07/2019 18:40

You’re probably the only poster on here who is not a troll

Ive been on here!!!

But otherwise...i agree with you completely

Imnobody4 · 25/07/2019 18:39

Sakura184
The vows arent mutual in the sense that they are equal, like say two lesbians marrying.
Women have a womb. RWW know this and they know this is what men need, because they don't have one themselves.
And women need sperm.
Is 2 women marrying prostitution where one has more money than the other?

LordRudolphVII · 25/07/2019 18:38

Who are/were the women feminism should have helped and who are/were the women it should have just ignored?

I'm guessing it's referencing the often relatively privileged women who seem obsessed with CEOs etc, as opposed to those at the margins of society (albeit this is a huge simplification of it).

Endofthedays · 25/07/2019 18:34

You’re probably the only poster on here who is not a troll, Lass, so good luck with getting the actual thread topic discussed.

LassOfFyvie · 25/07/2019 18:32

I'm not convinced that feminism has helped the women it should have?

I know we are 25 pages in but :-

Who are/were the women feminism should have helped and who are/were the women it should have just ignored?

soapona · 25/07/2019 18:26

@Goosefoot I see what you're saying. A business partnership could also be considered a relationship. You're not choosing your brother or Aunt. When you are getting married it's a choice for both sides and in any relationship you have commodities, skills and good looks which are considered trade offs for money, having children, respectability or social climbing I suppose!

OP posts:
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