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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Guardian article on women in sport - Holy Moley - concludes that there is a debate!

61 replies

MacaroonMama · 22/07/2019 10:34

Read it! Impressed. Will link in next comment.

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CuriousaboutSamphire · 23/07/2019 12:35

Is it just me or is NK seriously twisting in the wind there.... But I'm not talking about the science No Shit Sherlock! Grin

EweSurname · 23/07/2019 11:54

Ouch

mobile.twitter.com/seaningle/status/1153400446318534661 @

Guardian article on women in sport - Holy Moley - concludes that there is a debate!
NotBadConsidering · 23/07/2019 11:44

Well that idiot Ellis Cashmore was who Ingle was probably referring to, given he was in the BBC documentary on it.

BuzzShitbagBobbly · 23/07/2019 07:49

Ah Rachel. My name-giving nemesis.

You never, ever fail to live up to expectations.

(That is not a compliment, btw.)

DodoPatrol · 22/07/2019 23:29

I’m more than ever convinced that McKinnon and Madigan are spoofs setting out to test how far they can push this daftness.

‘Pick me, Sean, I’m so much famouser than the advisor to the Olympic ! And I don’t think I should take hormones cos I’m already all grrrrl!’

Popchyk · 22/07/2019 22:29

McKinnon again:

twitter.com/rachelvmckinnon/status/1153408747332521985

"Exactly: who are these men Sean?

I'm the most famous critic of Navratilova and her transphobia.

Who are these nebulous men?

Or did you mean trans women but are too cowardly to come out and say it?"

Popchyk · 22/07/2019 22:22

McKinnon speaks:

twitter.com/rachelvmckinnon/status/1153413197468037121

"When people who want to write a transphobic article, this time it's Sean Ingle, want to say they spoke to a trans woman who agrees with him, it's ALWAYS AND ONLY Joanna Harper, who is a shitty assimilationist and totally supports banning trans women not in HRT.

They never ask me"

Grin
nettie434 · 22/07/2019 22:04

When you use language like this [referring to men] why do I need clarification? This is as clear as it gets" [that you are being transphobic]

That really doesn't stand up to scrutiny. What was so irritating about the abuse directed at Martina, Sharron, Dame Kelly etc is that much of it came from men who are not trans. And who would not have been personally affected at all.

I'm another person who thinks Sean Ingle has actually stood up for women. He was singled out by Gabby Logan who has been as supportive as she can be for a BBC employee. Gary Lineker can go on about Brexit every day but we are told he can express personal views (often in quite robust language). Woe betide women like Jenni Murray and Gabby Logan who express their personal views politely.

NotTerfNorCis · 22/07/2019 21:01

I see Sean Ingle is being ordered to recite the catechism:

Transmen are men.

Transwomen are women.

Non-binary people are valid.

HerFemaleness · 22/07/2019 20:33

The authors of the BMJ piece argue that it is time to end male and female sections and instead put athletes in categories based on factors such as their weight, VO2 max, physiology

Love it. How to shit on women from a great height while retaining the appearence of progressiveness. ''hey women, we know you've spent decades creating women's sports teams, pushing for women's categories and trying to get funding, training and access to facilities etc and you've made a little headway, but now we're going to take it all away. We can't scientifically justify including transwomen in women's sports because of the physical advantages so instead we're going to abolish women's sports completely and create multiple new categories, if you're lucky you might make it in to the categories for the smallest weakest athletes - maybe.''.

We're told it's a gross violation of human rights for a transwomen to compete alongside other males in the men's category, but somehow, mysteriously, if a transwoman ends up competing against males in categories that consist only of males but aren't labeled as such - that would be all hunky dory.

tobeforgotten · 22/07/2019 18:33

bump

MacaroonMama · 22/07/2019 18:20

Yes I agree, Phoenix. Andyoldlabour, also agree - we know it is simple - but we also know full well the Guardian just wouldn't print it.

All these little chinks are letting the sunlight through...

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PhoenixBuchanan · 22/07/2019 16:40

My immediate thought on reading the article was that he is actually full TERF on this issue but has had to toe a more, ahem, balanced" line to get it published. So heartening to see this being addressed!

andyoldlabour · 22/07/2019 15:43

Maybe it is me being too cynical, but if Ingle had any bottle then he wouldn't say -

"This is a contentious and complicated issue".

No, it really isn't Sean, it is a very simple issue, which is based on biology, the very simple matter of chromosomes - XX and XY, and what happens to the male body before birth, immediately after birth and at puberty.
It only becomes contentious and complicated, when you try to put the 0.1% before the 50%, when you bow to gender ideology, instead of recognising science.

TemporaryPermanent · 22/07/2019 15:15

Sorry Macaroon, of course you're right. I'm hopeful.

DonkeySkin · 22/07/2019 14:52

Standing ovation for a male athlete making a stand over cheating.

But women should STFU over 3 biological males taking gold, silver and bronze in the 800m women's event in the Rio Olympics.

When I saw that Mack Horton protest, my first thought was, 'This is what male athletes do when they feel they are being cheated out of a rightful victory.' And to wish fervently that a female athlete somewhere would do the same. Of course the 'progressive' media would jump all over her, and she'd probably lose sponsorships and be sanctioned by sporting authorities.

It's always worth reposting this excellent 4th Wave Now article about how women's Olympic competition was almost destroyed by the Soviet-era doping program, and how US swimmer Shirley Babashoff was treated by the media when she protested the cheating.

4thwavenow.com/2018/04/15/surly-shirley-and-the-assault-on-womens-sport-then-and-now/

From the article:

In many ways the failure of women athletes to object to transgendered men in their sports is not surprising. There is a strong taboo in athletics against appearing to refuse to take personal responsibility for one’s sporting losses. No matter the circumstances, athletes are expected to take all of the blame when their performance does not measure up to standards. Even in circumstances that are objectively unfair and unequal, a female athlete – faced with the pressure to be socially correct, the requirement that females be “nice” at all times, and worries about being judged as a griper and a sore loser – will hold her fire and not point out the obvious.

That said, I do think there would be huge public support if a female athlete protested losing to a male a la Mack Horton. Most people can see the extreme unfairness of the situation.

From the 'Surly Shirley' article:

Women athletes are in an impossible bind: speak out and suffer Shirley’s fate, or continue to lose in lopsided and unfair competitions. Nothing will change until the athletes themselves, and not their surrogates, begin to protest, speak out, and refuse to participate in patently unfair competition. Until then, women’s sports will continue to be vulnerable to domination by transgender males.

AngryFeminist · 22/07/2019 14:11

Puuuulll!

Cautiously good news. Another one thinking there was a lot of very tightrope-walky editing going on behind the scenes to get this into print. Would lay odds that someone prepared to stick their head above the parapet in this climate holds much firmer views than the language in the article lets on.

Popchyk · 22/07/2019 14:09

Interesting accompanying article in The Guardian today here.

Mack Horton lauded by fellow swimmers after protesting Sun Yang's win

Olympic champion refused join Sun on podium
Australian given standing ovation at athletes’ village

www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jul/22/mack-horton-accused-of-disrespecting-china-after-protesting-sun-yangs-win

Standing ovation for a male athlete making a stand over cheating.

But women should STFU over 3 biological males taking gold, silver and bronze in the 800m women's event in the Rio Olympics.

It's a man's world all right.

DonkeySkin · 22/07/2019 14:07

Enough obfuscating language already!

The gender identity movement advances its aims primarily through the use of obfuscating language. Without that, it wouldn't be anywhere, because clear language immediately exposes the absurdity and sexism of what's going on.

Consider:

Do transgender athletes have an unfair advantage in sport?

Vs.

Do male athletes have an unfair advantage in women's sport?

The second sentence would never be a premise for 'debate', because the answer is obvious to everyone.

HorridHenrysNits · 22/07/2019 14:07

Love the way one of them is whining about the author casting the trans athlete as a man cheating his way to the gold. Erm, I don't think Sean Ingle is the one who cast Laurel as that love...

Whoever said the Guardian has worked out that GC feminists are more likely to be able to afford to pay for news than the woke squad is probably right. Cynical a take as it is!

MacaroonMama · 22/07/2019 14:04

To clarify, I am not going ga ga over a man writing an article that, while acknowledging there is a debate to be had, is probably a bit splinter bum-ish.

What I am amazed at, and glad for, is that this piece is in the Guardian! And so hopefully will plant seeds in the minds of its readers (used to be me!), and do the drip drip thing.

So not perfect. But I am bloody glad it is there at all.

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TemporaryPermanent · 22/07/2019 14:03

I'm with you Donkey.

If I have to read one more article about how incredibly complex and difficult this 'issue' is, I'll puke on my university women's rowing kit.

My toddler was pretty good at posting blocks into the right holes aged 18 months. That's about how complex it is. Thanks to the miracle of modern yet basic testing, not even athletes with DSD are that complex an issue any more. It's all really straightforward! Hooray!

If sport is transphobic, so is life. But I don't think sport is.

DpWm · 22/07/2019 14:00

Once again a “journalist” presents an apparently “unbiased” article about #trans ppl by appearing reasonable but revealing himself as a transphobic bigot by his use of language

I don't know why but I just love this comment from the Twits thread, being angry about someone for basically saying things that are very reasonable, so having to resort to insults.

RHTawneyonabus · 22/07/2019 13:56

The authors of the BMJ piece argue that it is time to end male and female sections and instead put athletes in categories based on factors such as their weight, VO2 max, physiology

But women would never reach the top categories and would compete with many more males in the lower categories. And those men would probably win because all men, not just those who had transitioned would be competing and it’s impossible to categorise to remove all the advantages males have (faster muscle twitch rate, greater lung capacity and so on).

Can easily imagine random mediocre man fancies a gold medal in his sport and so reduces his testosterone for the occasion, qualifies, competes and wins. (NB just talking about any random man here not a transgender person)

Why are we throwing away things that work for women to pander to a tiny tiny minority of people?

Popchyk · 22/07/2019 13:53
Grin

Natacha Kennedy:

"@seaningle is quite clearly being highly transphobic in this article. “Men”; Ingle you are a transphobic bigot. #trans women are women".

So another poster on Twitter says Ingle actually meant men (cis men). Sean Ingle pitches up to say yes, he meant men.

Natacha not having it:

"When you use language like this why do I need clarification? This is as clear as it gets".

So any reference to men anywhere is offensive to NK as clearly "men" always refers to transwomen.

And Joss Prior pitches in:

"He follows titiana mcgrath for gods sake and a raft of t e.r.f.s".

A few of the prominent TRAs on that thread.

But their erstwhile "allies" seem to have deserted them. The Yaniv effect maybe.

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