Why some young women are so Woke

That's a very good point, FloralBunting and does go some way to explaining it.

I think a lot of that is because many parts of our culture have become very suspicious of absolutes. So the pendulum has swung so far towards subjectivity that objectivity is seen as fundamentalism.

If you say there are women and there are men, that's seen as too concrete, and often in the same bracket as 'women must marry men', 'men shouldn't wear dresses', etc.

The ability to hold that material reality exists and is important, while at the same time rejecting strictly controlled traditional roles, seems to be a totally foreign concept for some people.

Apparently, TW only adopt typically female mannerisms/clothing/accoutrements (e.g. sexist stereotypes) so that we 'recognise' them as women. But we (T*s) are never satisfied because, when they don't, and these unfortunate women who were born into male bodies choose not to adopt these sexist stereotypes and wear the clothes/maintain the appearance most typically associated with their sex, because that's how they prefer to present, we say they're not women either because they 'look like men'. They can't win. Apparently.

Apparently, we can't have it all ways. Either being a woman is about the clothes you wear/interests you have (the stereotypes) etc or it isn't.

When I point out to him that, actually, it's just about the biology. And that most women don't 'feel like women' - that is just proof that we are c** and that only those whose gender is incongruous with their sex are aware of it.

And when I point out that that doesn't matter and that sex is the only thing that matters because that refers to the needs we, as individuals have, based upon our sexed bodies - for social situations; medical situations etc that's just because we are being overly simplistic. I think these are the times though that he gets close to 'getting it'. But he can't let himself get it because that's Wrongthink.

Rather than see man/woman as biological categories, my son, and others who hold the same views, see them as social categories.

And, if you accept man/woman as social categories rather than biological ones, actually, the argument makes sense. Except that they are not social categories because man = adult human male and woman = adult human female.

But that's reductive and unfair on the women who are born into men's bodies and the women who are born into men's bodies. And who are we to question other people's experiences of reality.

And so we arrive back at square one.

I think one of the problems is that what I would call media feminism but is probably Thrid Wave Feminism did a lot to undermine the basic concepts of 2nd Wave ie Women's Liberation. The fact that women as a sex class are oppressed by the male sex class.

So it isn't just that some women growing up dont directly experience discrimination (let alone male violence) but that the equality type agenda has let women believe on one level that they are equal. So when confronted with our right sexism and misogyny at university many young women dont seem to want to believe that men, and the young men they are friends / students with, are actually viewing them as inferior. Or even accept that young men do believe that so it must be easier to be a man, rather than believe that your body, which you may well be happy with, will always mean that some (most?) men will not treat you as equal. ie rather than challenge the male narrative it seems easier to join it (look at the pressure on lesbians to reject their same sex attraction as natural).

And this is why so many MRAs support the trans activists because it legitimises the male agenda and allows them to say we aren't discriminating against women because of sexism, because sex doesn't exist there is only gender identity.

It can be very very hard if in your day to day life and family you have experienced equal treatment and opportunity and then suddenly in the wider world you are constantly being confronted by treatment that says you are a second class citizen.

Wouldn't it be great if universities made sure that was a women's support group to help yong women challenge being disrespected.

Not forgetting that this is being done to them by young men who nearly all studies show are emotionally less mature (by about 5 years) than young women.

They're definitely rarer than sexist blokes.

It's pretty rare to meet trans people in day to day life

No it's not.

Again, it depends on your definition of 'trans'. I've known a few old skool transsexuals in my time. I've also met a whole host of young people who 'identify' as trans simply because they don't conform to gender norms.

Boys with long hair/girls with short hair - trans
Girls who wear 'boys' t shirts/jeans/checked shirts - trans
Boys who like pink - trans

Not specified as 'trans' anything in particular - they just identify by the prefix. It really does just mean "doesn't conform to strict gender stereotypes".

So, transsexuals - people with true gender dysphoria who believe that reassignment surgery is necessary to alleviate some of the trauma they feel at their sexed bodies - rare.

Someone who 'identifies as trans' - 10 a penny.

Have you asked him if men are allowed to wear dresses and make up whilst being men? If not why not?

Oh, believe me, we've had every conversation and variation upon it.

He completely accepts that men should be able to wear dresses and make up etc. He has always been pretty 'gender non conforming' himself - right from wearing his hair in bunches as a pre-schooler and playing with dolls to painting his nails on occasion now. If he were a young child now, he'd be at risk of being 'transed'. He doesn't recognise that though because he's never thought he was a girl - but that's because I've never labelled things as 'boy things' or 'girl things' or made him feel that can't be a boy for liking X or must be a girl for liking Y. He's not a 'masculine man'. But this only reinforces his belief.

He completely accepts that men can do these things which, I think, is why he so readily accepts that those who say they are women must be. Because he does some of those things but still knows that he is a man. So, if some males do it and believe they are women, then they must be.

Lots of people hear science and think that's fact then, they don't go and root out the research to understand it for themselves (and realise there is no science backing T)

The problem is that there is 'science' out there that supports it. Obviously, not 'real' science but it purports to be an advancement of the 'simplistic' (real) science we all know.

Unfortunately, there is as much out there that supports the other perspective as supports the truth.

Does he also believe that anorexics are born into fat bodies?

That's a false equivalence. Apparently...

Unfortunately, we've also had to agree to disagree because the gulf between our positions is so polarised, there is no middle ground to be found and I'm not prepared to lose my child over it. And I could.

For younger women and some older women who sit in some western privilege, it is either very easy to believe the fights of feminism have been won, or at least to have found a comfort level within the current system that they can live with. That seems to be the main driver for much wokeness - fish who don't know they're wet, really.

For the woke men of my acquaintance, it really does seem to be a vehicle for the venting of hitherto masked misogyny in an acceptably progressive way. I've known some proper woman haters of the conservative stripe, who have told me to my face that I should not be voting, and belong barefoot and pregnant. These men would be condemned by wokebros in the same breath as telling me that a penis can belong to a lesbian and it's bigoted to suggest otherwise. You even sometimes see that duper's delight half smile as they are calling you names like t**f and revelling in the ability to verbally abuse you to your face.

It's pretty rare to meet trans people in day to day life

No it's not.

he genuinely believes that some women are, by a mistake of birth, are born into male bodies

Does he also believe that anorexics are born into fat bodies?

Have you asked him if men are allowed to wear dresses and make up whilst being men? If not why not?

There is a logic fail going on encouraged by the weird mainstream reporting of fiction as fact (in the guise of T as LGB) which is only recently being addressed. I think sexism is at the heart of it as well as a general reluctance to investigate further when someone says TWAW because science. Lots of people hear science and think that's fact then, they don't go and root out the research to understand it for themselves (and realise there is no science backing T).

It is bonkers.

My son is very much like your daughter, Lucas. He is very much an ally of women - he challenges misogyny where he sees it; is exactly what we want when we talk about young men needing to be the ones who challenge 'rape myths'; most of his friends are female and he was only telling me the other day that he had no idea of certain aspects of menstruation etc that you only gain through lived experiences of it.

He has challenged sexist tropes at university (e.g. challenged a lecturer who apologised to the women on the course for using the word 'toolkit' as it excluded them as women - as 'tools' are a Man Thing) etc.

Except that he completely buys that TWAW. He completely accepts that some women are born into male bodies. He completely believes that female women (he actually uses the C word) have a responsibility to accomodate TW because we have an easier time of it - what with our female bodies being congruous with how we see ourselves and how other perceive us).

He totally understands that it is our biology that makes us vulnerable and is at the root of female oppression; he is angered by male violence against women; and in his first year at university, introduced his small cohort (mostly female) to feminisim. He doesn't understand why any woman wouldn't be a feminist.

And yet...

It's not that he, ultimately, prioritises men over women and that is why he is supportive of TWAW - he genuinely believes that some women are, by a mistake of birth, are born into male bodies.

Could it be because misogyny is something that is experienced far more in the real world (as opposed to online)?

It's pretty rare to meet trans people in day to day life.

I’m not going to get into all that, just the language you used makes it sound like you think she’s a fool, just like the classmates you mentioned.

Based on this comment I read again all the posts by the OP. Please will you, QueenofPain, highlight the language the OP used that indicates she thinks her daughter is a fool?

It’s a genuine request because all I saw was praise for her daughter. I’d like to know if I’m missing something, in order to be more aware of others’ points of view/interpretations.

Thank you.

I think many of us are idealistic when younger we see the world differently and we are not aware of how we can be manipulated as we don’t think nice liberal people would do this

Life experiences teach us something different and sadly it will their experiences not others that will most likely change their minds

lucasthecat I’m not going to get into all that no, well you wouldn’t, would you, QueenofPain, given that the amount of reasonable arguments you’ve got on your side adds up to precisely zero? 😂

Don’t worry, though. We can all see perfectly well that the Emperor is stark bollock naked.Nice of you to confirm it though!

lucasthecat, you’ll never get an answer to your question re, what makes a penis female, because the posters who chant TWAW can’t answer that without having to acknowledge to themselves that it’s a lie. It’s easier for them to say they’re not going to answer because ‘pile on, echo, etc’. The usual cowards answer.

It’s interesting that many of the same arguments being used by the trans community are the same ones used by feminist years age. Those arguments will also be used in the future for any minority looking to become ‘equal’ within society...

Take the argument regarding pronouns. There’s was a fight to stop gendered job titles such as postman. Why is it such a leap to get rid of gendered titles full stop?

But that's not what is being demanded. Not that we get rid of sexed pronouns but that we misapply.

For a while I thought misapplying pronouns to people who identified as a member of the opposite sex was just a kind thing to do. I found myself increasingly uneasy until a few months back I read Pronouns are Rohypnol a very powerful piece that analyses the almost subliminal message the wrong use of pronouns sends.

One example goes like this.

"She's very upset that the women don't want her in the communal showers"

Most people would react very differently to this sentence referring to a man who identifies as a woman compared to the factually accurate:

"He's very upset that the women don't want him in the communal showers".

In the first instance you might wonder why the other women are being so mean, whereas your reaction to the second is "Well, dur!"

Regarding efforts to make job titles more egalitarian if not unisex, feminists wanted a recognition of the fact that women were doing jobs that hadn't previously been open to them. It was a campaign based on the fact of women in the workplace. They demanded terminology that better reflected reality. In contrast, the current campaign for the misuse of pronouns demands that we ignore reality and miscommunicate.

I remember watching a young lesbian venting furiously on twitter about how men just wouldnt accept she wasnt into them. It was so powerful with the rage of the young, calling out misogynistic BS right left and centre.

and then someone replied, what about Transwomen?

and without even changing gear she replied "transwomen are women" and my heart really broke for her. She quite clearly didnt want to have sex with men ever but at the same time could not see how she was being gaslit with TWAW

The trouble there is that unlike much of history, the resistant older brigade were fighting against facts. (Often because facts were not known in earlier time said ) Gay or BAME people are no more likely than anyone else to be evil. Women were no less brainy than men.

Here we have the opposite. We have sex segregation and differentiation only because some things such as probability of experiencing discrimination or violence can be predicted based on peoples sex. We have transwomen claiming to be women, yet they still exhibit on average the behaviours of men. ( based on the data about male and trans sex offenders in UK prisons)

THere can therefore be no reason morally to refuse something to a man that we allow to a transwoman.

It’s interesting that many of the same arguments being used by the trans community are the same ones used by feminist years age. Those arguments will also be used in the future for any minority looking to become ‘equal’ within society. Which suggests this isn’t a new thing but something that the young have done through the generations. The things we deem not just acceptable but are now lauded were once mocked for being radical and loony lefties.

Take the argument regarding pronouns. There’s was a fight to stop gendered job titles such as postman. Why is it such a leap to get rid of gendered titles full stop?

Personally, I’m GC and think a female penis is an oxymoron but these arguments will always take place and the old will always object.

Because despite you raising her to be an intelligent, thoughtful woman - she's been socialised at university that her looks are important, she's "thick" - and then at work that she's meat.

So she's "playing nice" - nobody wants to be insulted or made to feel inferior.

Just the other day in one of these chats it was inferred that anyone with a GC stance was "far right"... and young women are more likely IMO to "play nice".

My middle-aged cloak of invisibility allows me to voice opinions I feel are common-sense... but aren't popular or "nice".

And to be clear, all sorts of people believe in all sorts of things without being a threat to society, because their beliefs can be questioned (we no longer have blasphemy laws) and there are no proposals to endorse their beliefs in legislation.