Why some young women are so Woke

My heart broke a little when my friend's lesbian daughter, early 20s, who I've known since she was tiny, posted on fb that 'as a white cis-woman I have privilege over my trans and BAME sisters'. This was posted in amongst a whole spiel about being kind to trans people as they were more at risk, and that she stood in solidarity with them against bigots and terfs . I did respond, after careful consideration. Someone else also responded in the same vein. I wasn't mean, but it was certainly unexpected on her part that anyone would question her.

Goosefoot,
I say this to the antinatalist feminists. That although it's true that many babies are raped into being ( it was legal to rape your wife until quite recently- I believe my grandma was married while this was legal and she has 7 kids: it doesn't bear thinking about), but it's also true that women want babies and I don't know to what extent women's desire for babies is nature or nurture

Teflon, racism and sexism seem to have increased over the last twenty years.

I think this comes down to id politics mostly combined with a nice dose of economic uncertainty.

Under the old approach the basis of equality was rooted in a view of all human beings having equal and intrinsic dignity. Not only despite things like sex or race or age, but also in spite or real measurable differences, like being attractive or ugly, smart or slow, kind or unkind, even a good person or a social liability. While it was recognised that probems like racism needed to be opposed the ideal outcome was that those kinds of differences would become invisible or unimportant.

We seem to have moved instead to a kind of view that sees all these groups as actually different, that continually highlights their difference, and involves a kind of battle to assert power and claim resources through hierarchies of oppression and privilege.

MaeWest1890

It's true that feminism has done that. But I think it's also true that feminism has very much been about getting men to be equal in the division of labour. Women are paying for this dearly in the family courts, where men who have chipped in a bit are arguing that they've carried out 50% of the childcare, whereas women know the deal of creating a life in pregnancy and the care that comes after means that this isn't possible. Women's work is undervalued and devalued so that the man, the family court, and society at large, thinks his contribution is equal.

I know a woman on Facebook who is getting help from a rabbi in her divorce because the secular courts would see her and her daughter homeless. Women are turning to religion ffs! Because religion ensures them at least some provisions based on the traditional division of labour. She is being criticized by feminists for going about it the religious route. I told her this radical feminist gives her my blessing.

Your comment seems a little confused MaeWest, like it's saying two different things. On the one hand patriarchy claims that women want to avoid having babies, on the other naturally that is what women want because men say they have to have babies? Which is it?

I am not particularly comfortable laying the fault of women having wombs at men's door. "Men" did not tell women they had to have babies, nature did, and railing against that as unfair is like railing that we can't breath water and live under the ocean. You can choose to view it as a kick in the pants by the cosmos but it will only drive you crazy and make you unhappy.

I think the question of why women are so resistant to feminism is an important one. It could be that it's because fighting men and male agendas is ultimately futile and stupid, because they're too powerful and women are too weak, and young women can feel this futility. Trans is a men's rights movement. If you can't beat them join them.

"I've always felt slightly uncomfortable about the whole focus of the women's movement being on 'equal rights' - rather than on equal value. Aligned to this, for me, is the 'rejection' of menstruation, pregnancy and childbirth - whereby they are always seen as negatives, or as medical issues."

That is what the Patriarchal Narrative has HIGHLIHGTED as what feminism is saying.

If for 2000 thousand years men have been oppressing women and have been telling every woman that she must produce my baby! It is not surprising that the first of sentence any women will utter in fighting back is that they reject your demand that I produce your baby.

This is what the Patriarchal Narrative Highlights as way to divide women.

Please do not still fall for this false narrative.

Feminism values all women's work. Has argued that it is wrong that Patriarchy recognises only the work, men do / did as being the GDP Economy.

Women's role of creating babies, caring for family etc is not recognised as GDP Economy.

Feminists are against this sexist view of the Economy.

Teflon, racism and sexism seem to have increased over the last twenty years.

I agree Goosefoot.

The trans ideology partially came from a very popular kind of feminism that was interested in minimising the impact of having a sexed body.

Maybe people shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the attitudes and beliefs of the younger generation as woke or naïve. Maybe they're a reflection of how society develops with each generation a little less racist or homophobic than the previous one to use a comparison.

Juthadathought

Yes, your thoughts are very similar to mine about this. I do wonder if the technological solution will fail because of environmental and social collapse but that isn't really comforting. It is one reason I feel like this is important though: I have three daughters, and I would like them to be able to live in a society that respects them as women, even if all those technological solutions are no longer available.

And there seems to be something wrong about attempts to give women justice and respect that depend on them suppressing parts of their biology.

I don't know that this is a very common POV though.

My Dds are Gender critical to the point of they don't believe in a female penis . However i had a bit of a discussion with a younger woman in her early 20s who did biology as part of her degree but she is all for the female penis She has since come out as lesbian I wonder if she would date a transwoman with a penis ? I didn't want to fall out with her she is a lovely girl but it is very frustrating all this wokeness.

planetary

I don't think feminism will really be able to be mature unless it can adress and say something really useful about how a human society can function without the technological and social advances that make it possible for us to modify or neuter our biology

Some people will look to technology to do this. The idea of womb transplants, men becoming pregnant, or maybe even babies gestated, wholly, outside of a human body. But tom me this is the stuff of nightmare....and in direct contradiction to where we as a planetery system need to be going.

We need to be getting back, closer to nature and the earth - not further away from it. I fear, though, we are fighting a losing battle with that one, as we accelerate into a dystopian technological future.

And maybe that is what allows the trans ideology to flourish, this tendency to clam up about very fundamental differences about women and men, or worse a tendency to treat them as if their outcomes are necessarily bigoted

You're right. Trans ideology flourishes in a culture in which the differences between men and women, male and female are diminished or over-looked.

I've always felt slightly uncomfortable about the whole focus of the women's movement being on 'equal rights' - rather than on equal value. Aligned to this, for me, is the 'rejection' of menstruation, pregnancy and childbirth - whereby they are always seen as negatives, or as medical issues.

In wining civil rights I do think we have come to 'throw out the baby with the bath water' - in turning our backs and our respect on more traditional female roles and models of humanity. i understand how and why this has come to be; but do think we need to re-calibrate.

If you assume that health care will always be universally available and that gender reassignment treatment is always successful and that women's health needs are always met and that contraceptive services can never be withdrawn and that your country will always have a government that is fundamentally benign and that the law will always protect women from being at a physical disadvantage, then nobody needs to worry about the consequences of sex.

TBF I find feminism that way sometimes as well.

I think equality and real respect between men and women has to be something fundamental and intrinsic to our nature as sexed human beings, which means it has to be true throughout time. Not that it has always been observed or believed, but always has been true. But through most of our history contraception has not been particularly reliable, and women who had sex, which most people want to do sometimes at least, have had it. And there hasn't been things like DNA analysis to show who was the father, or a court or justice service to garnish wages of deadbeat dads or any of those things. The technology and social infrastructure did not exist. Most women and men's lives were different because pregnancy, birth, and breastfeeding involved significant limits, because a lot of men's work was really physically demanding, and household work was also something that required a lot of time and attention. It might not just be the past either, who knows what the future brings.
But so often feminism seems to speak as if equality and respect in and of themselves cannot exist within those kinds of strictures, and denigrates those patterns of work and survival, and often many of the social practices that protected women to some extent within those societies. Often it seems that it can't even see that they did offer protection because of an assumption that they must be fundamentally sexist.
I don't think feminism will really be able to be mature unless it can adress and say something really useful about how a human society can function without the technological and social advances that make it possible for us to modify or neuter our biology. Which so far they haven't done - a fe claim it isn' possible which seems to imply equality is a human construct, others don't mention it and behave as if the current situation is normal.
And maybe that is what allows the trans ideology to flourish, this tendency to clam up about very fundamental differences about women and men, or worse a tendency to treat them as if their outcomes are necessarily bigoted.

I know that most men love a diva

Your daughter's experience is much like many of our own when we were younger.......and when many of us were allies to the LGB movement ( if not lesbians ourselves) and 'best friends' with gay men

I've been reflecting on the above fact for quite some months now...as a result of my awareness of the issues around the TRA agenda.

It has caused me to recall, with more clarity, and give name to those often experienced feelings of discomfort at some of what I witnessed, felt and experienced around gay male culture.

At the time, I just over-rode or ignored those feelings....I had gay best friends who were very much involved with the 'scene'. We were all part of this counter-cultural movement. Saw ourselves as progressive and anti- establishment. We seemed natural allies.

However, I never liked drag - found it insulting and demeaning; and i recognised the repulsion that many gay men felt towards women's bodies and women's sexuality.....the comments and the jokes.....

I also felt alienated by the aggressive and hyper-sexualised nature of the 'scene', and quite often the violence attached to it.....the promiscuity...

I'm now that most gay men love a diva....an over-the top drama queen - a kind of cultural fetish - but hadn't before noticed so clearly the real split in the perception of women. The diva on one hand, but then the total lack of interest or awareness of the issues of real, everyday women....everything is filtered through a gay male perspective.

I've woken up to just how disinterested many gay men are to women's issues; don't even recognise them; and are happy to throw women under the bus when it comes to signalling on trans rights. How seemingly intelligent men can come parrot nonsense about how identifying as a woman makes you one....

i feel really let down and angry...and this has been one of the most upsetting realisations. It has come to the point where I just don't want to know.....and am very aware that criticisms of gay male culture are forbidden, not allowed.......even though the mainstreaming of many of the more negative and seedy aspects of that culture are being being heavily pushed.

The Jane Clare Jones link was an interesting read. And for a bit of levity, all the Self ID and creation of various new categories puts me in mind of this scene from Steve Martin’s 1991 film, LA Story.

She will have to toughen up when she gets a job

Ironically, I think the thing that enables the belief that gender identity is more relevant than biological sex is huge amounts of privilege.

If you assume that health care will always be universally available and that gender reassignment treatment is always successful and that women's health needs are always met and that contraceptive services can never be withdrawn and that your country will always have a government that is fundamentally benign and that the law will always protect women from being at a physical disadvantage, then nobody needs to worry about the consequences of sex.

What?!!!! Seriously! We have multiple power tools in this household and they belong to me. I use them. I let DH borrow them if he asks nicely, he never asks. Same at my parents house. To suggest that tools are a man thing is EXTREMELY sexist IMO!

Sorry, I wasn't clear.

It was the lecturer who apologised for using the term toolkit because it was sexist as women dont use tools and only applied to the men in the cohort.

My son challenged her and pointed out it was sexist to apologise because women do own/use tools.

@gingerkittycat - I can’t help but feel Lego Friends has set feminism back a good few years! It makes me rage. I had the Lego airport, it was awesome. My brother had the police station. There were always a fair few criminals trying to escape by plane. There was no pink. It never even occurred to us to segregate our Lego, we spent HOURS playing with Lego together. There was no boy Lego and girl Lego

@bandsandbeer

He has challenged sexist tropes at university (e.g. challenged a lecturer who apologised to the women on the course for using the word 'toolkit' as it excluded them as women - as 'tools' are a Man Thing) etc.

What?!!!! Seriously! We have multiple power tools in this household and they belong to me. I use them. I let DH borrow them if he asks nicely, he never asks. Same at my parents house. To suggest that tools are a man thing is EXTREMELY sexist IMO!

My 16yr old dd believe TWAW. Whereas I believe transwomen are TRANSwomen. A different group of people. Women, men, men who believe wholeheartedly that they are women (but are, sadly for their mental health, actually male).

She and I cannot talk about it. She thinks I am horribly transphobic because I don’t think trans rights should trump women’s. That’s our fundamental sticking point. I am hoping as she gets older and experiences a bit of the real world she will come round a bit but I will have to wait and see on that one. Like the OP, we have had to agree not to discuss it. It’s frustrating beyond belief.

She has some hopelessly simplistic views on feminism and what it means but I am very glad she is giving it some thought. Ds has a female friend whose goal is to marry someone rich and have babies. So at least dd is considering feminism!