Video of JY tribunal.

Think I was possibly slightly wrong above, going by one of the latest tweets:

"Member must decide 5 things:

• nature of JY's gender identity

• was JY's gender id a factor in denial of service

• what remedy if any"

so it was gender identity rather than trans status that was supposedly the discriminating factor? I'm not entirely sure what that means, JY's gender id is "female" so how could "female" have led to refusal of service? I'm not trying to be stupid but I don't really feel like i know what words mean any more. Or does 'gender identity' mean 'trans woman'? I guess that's point 1 of what the member needs to determine.

Oh yes, Yaniv is a one person argument against self ID. Bad law is the problem here not a bad individual. If the law was sound in the first place a dodgy individual would not be able to wield it as a weapon.

But this is where it gets you, isn't it. If Yaniv is legally a woman, you have no way of proving that he has a cock. It's not good enough to say, oh come on, we can see you're a man.

And he's deliberately fudging the issue.

Furthermore, he wants the issue to be about what constitutes a woman, and whether or not that involves a different configuration of genitals. And because Canada is so woke, they don't want to bite the bullet and say what everyone else knows to be the truth.

They want to detach a penis from the fact that it's owned by a man.

I said to one of the politicians who came on here for a web chat that if a man was in my space and I said excuse me, this is the women's space, and he replied with I'm a woman, what can I do? Short of saying I don't believe you. Which most women have learnt is not the best thing to say to a man who is already demonstrating he doesn't give a fuck about your boundaries.

The entire premise is ridiculous. And is determined to ignore the power dynamic between men and women.

The simple point truth is that JY requested a service (ball waxing) from traders who did not offer that service.
The complaint should have been thrown out as unreasonable.
Self employed individuals cannot be compelled to start offering a service just a customer asks.
The End.

The actual material reality of JY isn't really in question here.
I agree it should be.
It could be from the point of view of showing he is a liar and not bringing case in good faith. But if he against all probability did turn out to have a vulva it wouldn't make his case any stronger as the women had good reason to think otherwise.

Datun I agree and that's why in a way it's so frustrating that what should be a fairly simple case has gotten completely lost in all the madness.
JY: You discriminated because I'm trans. My argument is that once you knew I was trans you refused service [there is also apparently a public/private distinction here that's important too, which also seems to be being lost].
Defendants: nope, here's the messages, we refused service because you seemed to be biologically male and we do not offer that service. Your trans status is not a factor.

Presumably the burden of proof would need to be quite high that the trans status was the actual deciding factor because how on earth do you prove what someone's motive for doing something was?

Well I thought that was the case that was brought to the Human Rights Tribanal. That they discriminated due to his trans status. Which isn't allowed in Canada.
I completely understand all the arguments; I just think this is the actual point that is supposed to be being defended.

I don't see how his trans status can be the discriminatory factor. It's his status as a male.

If a woman who was trans wanted a Brazilian i'm sure they would've done it.

It's the same argument whenever you look. People aren't discriminating against transwomen on the basis of how they identify, it's on the basis that they are male. Because they don't discriminate against transmen.

And in the uk the equality act provides for that. It absolutely recognises that transwomen are male.

Did his mother say that the court case should not be allowed, that the police were coming any minute with an ambulance?
It was hard to follow.

Sicario

I didn’t know that about the name etc that is truly sick. Jesus.

My point is the case is for the defendants to 'prove' they did not discriminate due to transgender status. It's about their thought processes and decision-making - or at least it would be in any sane court whereas here it's a big mess about whose profile picture was on what message etc. The actual material reality of JY isn't really in question here.
I agree it should be.

There was a clip of JY being interviewed on TV this week, where he claims that he can get pregnant. He also said that he only changed his name to Jessica this year.

Jessica is the name of the 14 year old girl he was grooming for abuse. That Jessica has submitted a criminal complaint for sexual harassment.

JY is a seriously sick individual who poses a very real threat to women and girls.

What genitals he told the beauticians he had has bearing, not what genitals he actually has. Unless he told them he was intersex it's irrelevant to why they declined his custom. Even if he told them it still doesn't say anything about what parts he may have available for waxing, so still irrelevant unless he said more specifically what condition he had and how it affects him.

JY has said he is trans and intersex - intersex is not a protected class. He says he has a penis and a vagina but intersex is not having both sex organs and he really should have looked this up before making claims in court, but no he is not on trial.

Ultimately I don't think someone should pay compensation to a person they could not provide a service to that they were not trained to provide.

Beyond that, as you can refuse the right to serve someone in a bar (like lesbians in t shirts), you should be able to refuse the right to serve anyone who makes you uncomfortable, particularly a lone worker or when you work from home.

Beyond that I don't think you should have to defend your right not to wax someone when you have religious reasons not to.

Personally I don't see why JY should be refused a facial or an arm wax in a salon if they do this for men, but I'm not the one doing it and he is a predator and maybe a woman's instinct was just she didn't want to be alone in a room with him.

This is not really about discrimination, for JY it is about money and power and fame.

What genitals he has goes to the hear of the case.

JY says he was not waxed because he's been discriminated against because he's trans.

The defendants says he was not waxed because he has a cock and balls and they do not offer a cock and balls waxing service.

Thing is, whether JY is lying or what genitals they have is sort of a distraction - obviously relevant in real life, but the case here is whether the defendants (JY is not on trial) discriminated against JY because of JY's 'transgender' status (that status isn't really in dispute, despite it being clear as mud what it actually means!).

That is the question the judge will be seeking to answer.

Well, let's hope so. And then that JY is prosecuted for perverting snigger the course of justice.

But he's like Humpty Dumpty: "Words mean what I want them to mean."

With apologies to Lewis Carroll.

although I do think that a medical examination is called for, because it looks like - note I'm not saying is - that JY is lying under oath

JY has to prove their case. Part of that appears to be that he has female genitals. Whether this means he is claiming a "female penis" or some sort of neo-vagina is not clear. Either way JY has to prove their case which they could by submitting medical records.

In the absence of any such proof (and the quite obvious contradictions) the judge will almost certainly decide that JY is lying and that they do not have female genitals.

They're allowing JY the opportunity to say pretty much everything they want thus mitigating the claims of bias/unfairness that will inevitably come

yup, this has been my point all along - although I do think that a medical examination is called for, because it looks like - note I'm not saying is - that JY is lying under oath.

But I think JY is very unwell, and that that has led to some cognitive deficits, which mean that JY can no longer distinguish between truth and falsehood. It seems that JY lives in a world of their own, with little reference to everyone else's reality.

I couldn’t finish the video. It’s so weird that I had to stop. No sense was being made at all. I only made it like five minutes.

In summary, there is no DSD where someone with male genitalia menstruates. There are a number of complex conditions that can lead to a mix of internal organs. These often involve other health implications and can be traumatic and life changing for people to come to terms with upon diagnosis. They are not fun talking points by which other people can validate their gender identities by the spreading of misinformation. It does not help people with those conditions.

Yep

v interesting blog

Suffice to say, if Yaniv has a penis, they do not also have a vagina.

Exactly

Do Intersex Men Have Periods?

• @MRKHVoice The Blog of Claire Graham

“I’ve been asked to comment on some of the claims made by Jessica Yaniv in their recent British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal hearing (there’s some background to the case here for those not familiar with it), as well as other comments they have made in the past pertaining to being intersex.”

Full blog here
mrkhvoice.com/index.php/2019/07/21/do-intersex-men-have-periods/

The wikipedia article on intersex is quite a good summary of a complex feature of human genetics en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex, particularly the section on "Conditions" where it is the last 2, Other - Mosaicism/Chimerism and Other - Ovotesticular disorder (formerly known as true hermaphroditism) which are conditions which you could, simplisticly, argue were "both male and female" because cells with and without Y chromosomes are found in some tissues of the body, to varying degrees (or Y chromosomes without the SRY region or X chromosomes where the SRY region has mutated onto the X chromosome). These people categorically don't have a waxable cock and balls and periods)

It's a complex variation of the normal binary, and I dont claim to be an expert (I wrote my thesis on the genetic basis of intersex conditions for my degree in Molecular Genetics, but some years ago so I am not up to date and I am not a doctor). Which is why it pisses me off when people like JY who don't have so much as a Biology GCSE, never mind a biological sciences/medical degree spout off about it and try and conflate intersex with trans

I think the tribunal judge is doing a pretty good job. They're allowing JY the opportunity to say pretty much everything they want thus mitigating the claims of bias/unfairness that will inevitably come.

It is the judge who will make the decision. They will not be unduly influenced by improper evidence in the way a jury might.

I am really concerned that this has been recorded though. I'm not a Canadian lawyer but if you did that in England/wales you'd be in no end of trouble and it'd be fairly easy to figure out from the seating arrangement who made the recording.