Why the sudden hostility to anti-vaxxers? (Not here, I mean in the culture at large...)

ColdTattyWaitingForSummer
I actually think that honest conversations around vaccine injury, and the possible risks and side effects, for the individual and wider population, would help; instead of just shutting people down and calling them idiots.

Yes exactly. In the Japanese documentary the vaccine damage I saw was real. The poor mothers crying as they watched video footage of what their kids had been like before they were damaged.

And I'm not an anti vaxxer.

Also can I just say, that when I lived in Japan there were some vaccines that were for diseases passed from person to person. Then there were other vaccines for things you could get from nature, not from other people. Like Japanese encephalitis, which comes from mosquitos. If something comes from mosquitoes you're not putting other kids in danger by refusing this vaccine, only your own kid. So when it came to these nature born illnesses there was far more discussion about whether it's worth it, or not, for you to vaccinate. Doctors would give half an hour talks to parents on the pros and cons of the vaccine, taking into account vaccine damage.
Because I lived in an area with a lot of pig farms, it meant there were more mosquitos than average, so after a lot of deliberation I went ahead with the vaccine for both my kids

I strongly disagree with disallowing unvaccinating children to attend school. I suspect it will just send them underground to homeschool or Steiner schools rather than increase vaccine rates. And then they’ll be off the authorities radar.

One can understand that these parents have concerns, but the concerns are grounded in ignorance and are dangerous to the babies. If parents sincerely believed that it was a good idea to feed infants only vegetable soup instead of milk, or to leave them unsupervised for long periods, etc. etc., or put them outside in the winter without warm clothing, I think most people would say that those parents are not being good watchdogs for children's care, even if those parents had philosophical reasons for wanting to do so. The children are vulnerable and have some rights, too.

Because they're idiot wankers.

Two separate issues:

The rise of pseudoscientific wackerywoo, and the real devastation caused by its unchallenged proliferation,
and the right of individuals to freedom of belief and liberty

Important to separate the two.
I am pro vaccination.
But opposed to compulsory vaccination.
Pro parental authority,
But parents who reject vaccination ought to understand they are voluntarily choosing to limit their own and their child's freedoms, and taking risks.

I cannot be forced to wear a seatbelt, but if I expect to ride in a car I can. If I reject seatbelts, my choice would have to be to forfeit riding in cars.
Similarly, if I reject vaccination, I must forfeit other freedoms, like my child attending schools which may determine all children must be vaccinated to attend.

One of my issues with the constant left/right political division, is the way unrelated beliefs are packaged arbitrarily into silos.
So the left adopts public welfare initiatives and universal healthcare (good) but also embraces wackerywoo (bad) and ALSO leans towards totalitarianism (bad), whereas the right are more inclined towards individual liberty (good), less inclined to wackery (good), but fail to understand the impact of class and collective harm (bad).

I see the antivaxx movement as an alignment with trans ideology, it's false pseudoscience perpetuated widely.
The difference is that people do not yet feel able to trounce the pseudoscience of trans the way they can with antivaxxers, because it's been paired with 'most vulnerable group on the planet and you're a bigot if you challenge me'.

Passthecherrycoke

I’m so sorry! Misunderstood, apologies. Yes, agreed. No sense taking this to Internet forums IMO. As a family actually affected by vaccines, which does happen, there are far better ways. Alienating and setting up opposite camps is all the internet is good for.

In short I think we’re pretty much saying the same thing

JessicaWakefieldSV Sorry I wasn’t massively clear but that sentence is also taken out of context- they (anti vaxxers) aren’t going to believe “clear scientific evidence” posted by a stranger on the internet in the context of most anti vaccination threads, which include bullying and ridiculing.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers

Are you a medical professional? It’s someone else’s medical decisions, you ought to stay out of it. It makes it worse when people are attacked by other parents. You’re not helping so I’m glad you stopped.

Just to clarify a few points FIL is a paediatrician. DS1 was coming due for his MMR about 17 years ago.

Why did you do that?

Because I don't want people dying or being left disabled by preventable diseases. Because all of society is responsible for the safety and well being of our most vulnerable members. Because leaving misinformation and outright lies unchallenged means others will believe them.

The better question is why I stopped? Because it is mentally exhausting. Because it wears you down. And that is the danger of anti-science dogma generally.

presenting clear scientific evidence is never going to work, because they don’t believe it.

I don’t know who you mean by ‘they’, but there are different types of people with different concerns. My mother was reassured by clear evidence, a kind doctor who had seen her next to her sick children and treated her with respect and understanding.

I see your point Arnold but no, presenting clear scientific evidence is never going to work, because they don’t believe it. That’s the problem, the expectation that you can just throw in a link to a science paper and get them changing their mind and thanking you. You’re just a stranger on the internet- they don’t trust you. So your engagement with them is completely misplaced and doomed to fail. So just stopping that and bullying them instead isn’t the answer- just leave them alone.

I often think the internet arguments actually fuel some anti vaxxers and make them further entrenched in their views as a kind of rebellion against the sort of people they dislike.

What do they say? The definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome? Internet arguing about vaccinations is just a game on both sides. It’s a more extreme version of how often you wash your towels

I actually think that honest conversations around vaccine injury, and the possible risks and side effects, for the individual and wider population, would help; instead of just shutting people down and calling them idiots. (I’m not an anti-vaxxer and I’m pretty sure my dc are up to date with their jabs.)

That’s the only way to really convince and inform but even on this thread that approach is not common.

People are vaccine damaged. That’s factual. A minority in comparison, but it’s still something that causes fear and concern- especially to those who have damaged children or know of someone. It’s not all about Wakefield and MMR at all, although I’m surprised people are still convinced by him. Anyway, if the aim is to make sure every child is vaccinated, we need a different conversation then what is taking place. False claims and insults from either side are not helpful.

The anti vaxxers have been around for ages. I can remember seeing stuff on the internet about the MMR vaccine (Dr Wakefield IIRC) leading into when DS1 was due for his and got a bit panicky. I spoke with FIL who eased my mind.

What I have noticed over the ensuing years is that initially the anti vaxxer demographic was pretty solid among the alternative lifestyle/back to nature left leaning type. Now it seems to be more embraced by the religious conservative/home schooling don't trust the government type. So I do wonder have ideas and beliefs "flipped" between these two demographics? I think it would make a fascinating study.

Thank you for the replies regarding HPV vaccines and boys.

I'm glad it is being rolled out to them, and am now wondering if it wasn't previously due to cost issues?

As far as Scotland is concerned last I looked uptake of vaccines generally is high here so I'm not surprised that is also true for HPV.

Why uptake is generally higher in Scotland is a question worth pondering as it suggests there may be cultural factors in play beyond simple religious ones (which were an issue when HPV was first rolled out).

• Obviously once children are Gillick competent then should be able to get themselves vaccinated.

Some are doing exactly that.

I have tried presenting the clear scientific evidence a thousand times. I have tried appealing to rationality, common decency a thousand times. None of it makes a difference so I'm done. I haven't tried to 'change minds' on this for years. There is no point.

Why did you do that? Don’t you think you should leave it up to their doctor?

I find the OP muddled and the logic difficult to follow.

I am concerned about mandated medical treatment, but in this case its anti vaxxers that are driving mandated vaccinations; because they are causing outbreaks of harmful diseases that were previously suppressed. Anti vaxxers cause harm to people who cannot be vaccinated and rely on herd immunity, and harm their own children.
The trans agenda is well supported and on the verge of becoming State mandated. Many parents who don't think their children are trans are being overruled.
There should be State intervention to say that drastic medical treatments that leave adults sterile and without sexual function are not something we should do to children.

So I think OP is well meaning but misinformed.

but unless you want to change their mind what’s the point engaging with them? And you won’t change their mind by bullying them

My children are in their early 20s. The anti-MMR crowd were in abundance when they were babies.

I have tried presenting the clear scientific evidence a thousand times. I have tried appealing to rationality, common decency a thousand times. None of it makes a difference so I'm done. I haven't tried to 'change minds' on this for years. There is no point.

I will however, with heavy heart say 'I told you so', because I, and thousands of others did.

As for linking pro-vaccination to anti-mutilating and sterilising children that's an effing joke.

Anti-vaxxers and pro-trans individuals are the same cohort. Predominantly middle class, university educated (though rarely in sciences), have little to no contact with vulnerable people yet think they know better crowd.

I suspect it's because more and more we are having our society changed because of beliefs which are totally irrational and without evidence.

This is different to arguing about the effects of different tax rates, the best way to provide health care, the merits or otherwise of private schools. These are all political issues that can be argued over with reason and evidence. Anti-vaxx, Brexit, these are ideologies which their proponents cannot justify rationally, yet we are all expected to live with the consequrences, whether it's measles or queues at the ports.

@ArnoldWhatshisknickers HPV is being rolled out for boys in Ireland soon.

I believe, but am not certain that Scotland is one of the regions that have had very good uptake of HPV vaccine.

Arnold in regards to boys and the HPV vaccine that is due to happen. My DS is 11 and will be starting secondary in September and he should be having it. (DD is 2 years older and it was just girls at that point)