Feminists only claim to care about lesbians in order to justify transphobia

What are you actually doing is placing the validation of men, over the dignity, safety, and privacy of women. You are not comparing apples with apples.

Validation versus safety and privacy. Validation versus boundaries. Validation versus consent.

Women's spaces are not there to validate men. They are there precisely because they're necessary to keep women safe.

It really is the height of enough that women have to have segregation for their protection, and then men want to use that very segregation for their own validation.

All this. And yes, it really is.

means you are placing men, who identify as women, over women.

"Placing trans women as equal to women Datun".

What are you actually doing is placing the validation of men, over the dignity, safety, and privacy of women. You are not comparing apples with apples.

Validation versus safety and privacy. Validation versus boundaries. Validation versus consent.

Women's spaces are not there to validate men. They are there precisely because they're necessary to keep women safe.

It really is the height of enough that women have to have segregation for their protection, and then men want to use that very segregation for their own validation.

Field, you do realise this has become the issue it has because the activists are trying to demolish the true trans thing anyway? The proposals around reforming the GRA remove all the supportive measures that may have previously helped the 'true trans' people you know, and open the definition to all those people who you seem to be suggesting aren't really trans at all.

You are, whether you want to acknowledge it or not, arguing for women to accept any and all males who wish to access them or their spaces with all the increased risk and destruction of privacy that involves, for the sake of the feelings of the very few males who find it difficult to use the facilities set aside for males.

And that's my lot on toilets.

If you'd like to continue discussing why lesbians should or should not be free from any kind of coercion to accept males, and able to set stricter boundaries without being called bigots for it, I shall continue to engage. I'm not doing the toilet fandango again for 1000 posts, though.

Not sure how you do distinguish but it is extreme to punish the law abiding genuine majority.

Oh dear God, how did we come to this?

Acknowledging someone's sex, isn't a punishment.

It's not treating people as equal, it's treating them as identical.

A para-olympian has equality with me, but it doesn't mean I can run against them, because we are not identical.

Men commit 99% of all sex crimes and 90% of violent crimes. Irrespective of how they identify. If you are taking the stance that we should not treat a whole cohort, based on a certain significant number, then you are just advocating for mixed sex across the board, under which women absolutely suffer, horrendously.

Sort out male violence, male dominance, and a chauvinistic society, under which women are disadvantaged. Then we can talk about being treated identically.

And. If you are going to engage, please have a better argument.

We do not want them in the men’s toilet.

Is that the royal we you're using?

Not sure how you do distinguish but it is extreme to punish the law abiding genuine majority. Particularly where lengthy treatment encourages blend in as best they can.
I did comment earlier about lesbians and responded to point about toilets. Not to derail, fair enough so that is that.

Firstly, I would actually really be interested to read how you would distinguish between 'true trans' and all the people who are called trans but don't meet your particular standard.

And secondly, why are we talking about toilet facilities on a thread about lesbians?

Many of us know TW they are our friends, sisters, daughters, aunts, colleagues. They should not be told to use the men’s toilet. We do not want them in the men’s toilet.
If the definition includes transvestites or paraphiliacs then there is legitimate constructive conversate to have about how we distinguish them and who uses different facilities.

It's not EmpressLesbianInChair's definition. It's Stonewall's. Did you not know that?

your definition isn’t necessarily mine.

Placing trans women as equal to women Datun

Have you listened to what we’ve said about the modern definition of trans, though?

means you are placing men, who identify as women, over women.

Placing trans women as equal to women Datun

Edit: I mean grandmothers. Obviously.

Feminists are only pretending to care about lesbians =

No feminists are lesbians
No feminists have lesbian mothers
No feminists have lesbian sisters
No feminists have lesbian daughters
No feminists have lesbian aunts
No feminists have lesbian nieces
No feminists have lesbian grandparents
No feminists have lesbian friends.

We're way, way past the days when it was just a question of a few transsexual people who nearly all had genital surgery.

Aaaarrrgghhhhh the very words 'genital surgery' makes me pull my bits back up into my body as far as they'll go.

😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱

TW or transsexuals or however you want to refer to them

Your definition of TW is very narrow though. Going by the Stonewall definition, any bloke who feels uncomfortable with the 'gender assigned to him at birth' is trans and should be instantly accepted as such - even if they just want to identify as female some of the time. Like Pips Bunce, the 'proud father & husband' who won an award for women, or the police officer who has ID cards in male & female names & uses whichever one they feel like using at the time.

We're way, way past the days when it was just a question of a few transsexual people who nearly all had genital surgery.

Dismissing unisex toilets means you see the validation of men identifying as women as more important than women. Which indicates to me that you absolutely see them as men, not women.

Very well said, Datun.

Correction, women whose sexual orientation includes transwomen ... are not lesbians.

Women who sleep with transwomen are not lesbians.

If you want to eliminate sexual orientation as a concept, go right ahead. You won't find many supporters. Sexual orientation is based on sex, and is enshrined in law, based on sex.

Also stating that unisex toilets have their place, but men who identify as women should be able to access women's toilets means you are placing men, who identify as women, over women. Even when there is an alternative.

It's not remotely surprising, but it's difficult to justify, in my opinion. Dismissing unisex toilets means you see the validation of men identifying as women as more important than women. Which indicates to me that you absolutely see them as men, not women.

My point is that many lesbians support transwomen, and don’t exclude them. Many/ most are not interested sexually in people with penises and most lesbians and TW think that is fine. Unisex toilets have their place but equally for many TW or transsexuals or however you want to refer to them they should be able and are able to use female toilets, where there is privacy.

I’m aware am in minority opinion here, and have made my point so will leave it there.

I've just been catching up with the thread and I'm wondering what your point is too, Fieldofgreycorn. It's not an interrogation to ask. It's because you're unclear.

" What is your purpose, please?

JackyHolyoake this feels a bit like an interrogation. Are you asking me to explain or justify my being here? "

I am asking you what is the point you are trying to make? What is the purpose of your comments?

Datun, so true.

"The cotton ceiling isn't a thing. BTW, saying you wouldn't even consider a male-bodied lesbian (clunky term used for forum rules only) is transphobic."

There’s no indication of how representative that report is

How many lesbians must be raped by transwomen for you to admit that some TW commit corrective rape and this is a problem?

For me, the number is "one".

There’s no indication of how representative that report is. Get the L out have made their anti trans views clear and have been disowned by most lesbians.

See, and that's TRA logic.

The cotton ceiling isn't a thing and the number of lesbians complaining is minuscule. But it's deffo transphobic for lesbians to exclude transwomen.