Carriers v Spurters

It’s pure misogyny. And yes all of the connotations are negative and dehumanising. This man clearly has no respect for women or children.

Carriers is such a dehumanising way to talk about the women involved with surrogacy.

It implies that there is nothing more to being pregnant than carrying a bag of shopping, which has dangerous medical connotations.

It also has overtones of infection and disease - we talk about someone being a 'carrier' of a contagious illness like typhoid or TB, or a recessive genetic disorder.

Carriers is such a dehumanising way to talk about the women involved with surrogacy.

It implies that there is nothing more to being pregnant than carrying a bag of shopping, which has dangerous medical connotations.

Carriers is such a dehumanising way to talk about the women involved with surrogacy.

All the physical risks and side effects associated with pregnancy and birth that he’s wanting them to undergo on his behalf, and he can’t refer to these women in a way that makes them sound like real people?

oops, wrong thread.

Even though he understood he would need to wait, to ensure he was ready for the irreversible changes to his gender identity, going through puberty “devastated him.”

Female puberty might be an obvious sign that you are female, and many women find female puberty difficult.

However, it's difficult to understand how it would be more devastating than coming to terms with the fact that no surgery or drugs can fully create the effects of male puberty or a functioning penis, or lifelong dependence on drugs in a world where access to medicine is not guaranteed.

Now fifteen, Leo will soon be finishing his course of puberty blockers and start hormone replacement therapy, where he will receive the testosterone that will give him the male characteristics that are in line with his identity.

No, they won't. Neither drugs nor surgery can create a male body.

Agree Merry.

We can’t have Mothers being referred to can we.

As someone who’s mother abandoned her at 3 years old, I know no matter how wonderful the people who bring you up, are, the lack of a mother has affected me hugely, because no one spoke about it.
These men won’t talk about the Mothers either, will they.

I've read very good things about the Citroen Berlingo

How dehumanising.

But I suppose that’s the intention.

Re: the language it's designed to frame the child's origins in a way that supports the parent rather than the child, and is reminiscent of the way that adoptions used to be hidden.

I'm less concerned about his use of language than his apparent lack of understanding of the ethics of surrogacy and the process of pregnancy.

In UK, and I think US law the birth mother is the automatic legal parent of the child, so not just 'the carrier'.

He claims that the woman who gives birth to his child would not be 'used' because they would be very highly compensated, but then goes on to say that this excludes many people from surrogacy arrangements and looks forward to the cost of surrogacy falling dramatically.

He says that some women 'claim to enjoy pregnancy', which is really neither here nor there as it is impossible to predict the risks or effects of pregnancy, and of course somebody who feels they are pushed into surrogacy because of financial necessity will tell a client that they 'enjoy' the experience.

Very keen on this response from Gender Free Gert:

Friends know we’re trying to find a carrier

I've read very good things about the Citroen Berlingo
twitter.com/gert/status/1150037784276586496?s=21

CoffeeandChocolate Once you’re aware of it, you just keep seeing how much worse it is as you read more. A year ago, I thought altruistic may have been ok in certain circumstances but since then I’ve realised that this ignores the rights of the new born baby. They are a person, they are not a present to be given away. They are not a thing to be gifted or sold. They are a little person who just wants to be with their mother and has a human right to her.
I’m glad the thread tipped you over. We need everyone to write back to the current consultation and let the government know that we don’t want their awful new law.

I have mumsnet to thank for changing my mind on surrogacy. Some of the thread contributors in the past have very nearly scared me away from reading, they're so aggressive passionate about the subject, but seeing that twitter thread about india had finally peaked me.

Great thread thanks Campervan69

I just saw a tweet that said "so can we call you the wanker then?" Spot on.

twitter.com/MatthewGreenf11/status/1150826082687442944?s=19

This is a great thread about the abuses of commercial surrogacy

It’s a great thread. The devaluing of maternity in all its physical and psychological and emotional aspects is IMO an example of misogyny. Of course I don’t mean literal hatred of women in the overt, obvious, abusive sense. But the idea that women can be paid for biological and sexual services to men, services that only they can provide, by dint of their femaleness, is certainly reflective of a type of hatred, dismissiveness and unquestioning entitlement to use women.

And porn.

I'm seeing a link between the dehumanising language used about women by supporters of prostitution, surrogacy organisations and tra.

I'm glad that there's a slight shift in the perception of surrogacy - until recently it was overwhelmingly seen as a good thing, no questions asked but it's a topic which is evidently problematic when you really DO think about it. Examining motivations and thinking about consequences gets forgotten in the rush to "be nice" but once a few people do start to examine motivations and think about consequences guess what, it's actually not always "nice".

I saw this this morning and hoped I'd imagined it. But it's real.

This person is doubling down.

Please nobody ever facilitate him raising a child. Or going near a child. His ethics are atrocious. I gather learning about ethics doesn't do anything to make someone act in an ethical way.

Don't point him towards a baby carrier - otherwise known as a sling/wrap etc. it will encourage his belief in his right to babies.

Campervan69
I don't think it's fair to call him a troll, professional or otherwise just because he doesn't spout the approved line on homosexuality.

BBC - Future - ‘I am gay – but I wasn’t born this way’
www.bbc.com/future/story/20160627-i-am-gay-but-i-wasnt-born-this-way
What bothers me is he's got a PhD in ethics from a Catholic university and can't see how offensive his attitude is. Over to you Caroline.