Foreign doctors and sex assaults.

My previous just an example of a policy that might have impact, SevenMelon. I don’t know what the NHS is proposing. My main point is that the Daily Mail have, deliberately I suspect, mixed up two different things and used one to try and undermine the other without any real analysis. It’s just raising a fog of fear and I’m disappointed to see such a lack of critical thinking on this board over something like that. God knows we’ve seen that sort of obfuscation used enough in the trans debate to try and cloud what’s really going on.

SevenMelon encouragement to follow set of guidelines to think about what you are reporting and whether it’s something that should be reported or not could help combat unintended racism. As I recall (but can’t currently search for), there is significant research that shows when people are walked through a model process for analysing what they are reporting and focusing on the action rather than the identity of the person they’re reporting, there tends to be less bias. It would have the added benefit of encouraging the reporting of non-BAME employees who might be given the benefit of the doubt when they should not be (which is the other side of disproportionate reporting).

How the UK government manages to use statistics to promote the divides in the country.

23 proven cases in three years out of 95,000 doctors from black and minority ethnic backgrounds (BME) does not really sound like a statistic that is worth creating fear and loathing about the general public about.

A relative of mine works as a consultant and has expressed the opinion that some foreign-trained doctors she has worked with have misrepresented the truth about their training and experience.

One case involved someone working as a registrar who was so hopeless, they had to fire him before he made a horrific mistake that prompted litigation. Apparently, he said he was a consultant in his home country.

Again, she also suspects some qualifications are not sound.

The reason I suspect for "foreign-trained" is that the problem also involves non-BME doctors from EU countries.

Boomboomscousin I’m not quite sure how you could prevent disproportionate reporting without disbelieving those accusing? Any examples of the kind of policy you think would help?

This is an atrocious article.

The NHS seems to be talking about their disciplinary system in general seems to be biased against BAME employees, whereas the Mail is contrasting that with the percentage of foreign-trained doctors who commit sexual assault etc.

So the Mail are conflating two different groups of NHS staff (BAME v. foreign-trained) and comparing a subgroup of disciplinary charges (proved sexual incidents) against the whole of the GMC disciplinary system. These are not equivalents and should not be used to undermine an attempt to mitigate against racism.

While the two thirds of proven sexual incidents being by foreign-trained doctors is a figure that indicates a possible need to address recruiting or practices, it isn't a reason to think that the NHS is wrong to target racism in their disciplinary system. We need to learn lessons from things like Rotherham and not let cultural differences or a fear of being accused of racism be an excuse for not tackling poor practice, but that doesn't mean giving up on the fight against racism.

Lots of BAME women work in the NHS, their disproportionate reporting to the GMC means they are less likely to be as successful in the health care industry. It marginalizes them and should not be accepted just because there are a bunch of foreign-trained men who assault women.

There is no reason we can't support BAME NHS staff and not accept sexual misconduct.

I believe there has been a successful programme in one of the Nordic countries, delivered to immigrant men and women about equality. It spells out the right of women to make decisions about their own clothing, work, and generally as an individual living there.

Equally, in my opinion, anyone requiring this training is beyond hope and should not be a practising doctor in the first place.

I’d love to know how they’d effectively deliver that training. I suspect it wouldn’t make any difference.

Onefoot, Fin, a mix of irony and a dry acceptance that some men seem to need extra training to recognise their own behaviour. Clearly they are somehow under the misapprehension that it's ok.

prawn I thought most men in this world are brought up to see women as below themselves. See how we are treated in the “equal” UK?

Ha ha AlwaysComing Home, I was interviewing one of his patients.

I was once asked by an A and E doctor if I was up for an extra marital affair.

I’m not surprised waiting times are so long if the triage questionnaire is that detailed.

One foot, I thought the poster was being ironic.

And if it means that doctors receive more support and better training on how to avoid sexually assaulting patients, then I suppose it's a plus.

Can someone be "trained and supported" to avoid sexually assaulting a patient? Surely any decent human being would simply not sexually assault anyone?

I think it’s more cultural too. I was once asked by an A and E doctor if I was up for an extra marital affair. It was very blatant and I was attending A and E on a professional basis.
I think I was just seen as having low principals as I was from a different cultural background and it was maybe the done thing amongst the elite doctors.
Baffles me to this day and DH found it bemusing too.

Yeah, I have been told by a (foreign trained) Doctor that it is much easier to get accepted and train abroad. He advised a colleague of mine to do it.

Should have said above the majority are excellent, not many.

I know this is a slightly separate (although related) point, but I am a doctor and have been shocked at the lack of knowledge from some foreign trained doctors. There are a few who would never have passed UK medical school exams - one obstetrician in particular comes to mind who told me that yams were the greatest cause of twin pregnancies (not maternal age, FH or certain genetic backgrounds...) and that beta-hcg is produced by the pituitary

Of course, it goes without saying that many are excellent, but the bar certainly seems to be set higher for UK medical students in my experience.

I would want to investigate if it was:

a) "foreign" doctors more likely to be complained about

b) more likely to be taken to a tribunal

c) more likely to offend for some reason

d) local doctors better at picking/intimidating their victims

e) local doctors being defended more thoroughly by their seniors.

There must be a few more things needing consideration.

There's so much to unpack in that statistic!

And if it means that doctors receive more support and better training on how to avoid sexually assaulting patients, then I suppose it's a plus.

What does foreign mean in this context?
What % of nhs docs meet this criteria?

How many of the people were male?

I don't see it as a racial thing at all. It's entirely cultural. If you're a man brought up to see women as subordinate and that women who don't share your faith are scum then it's not surprising that you're more likely to commit sex assaults on them.

Are you formerly mediocre, or formerly male?