"Your pronouns"

Preferred pronouns
Coffee,black,no sugar/tea,black,two sugars/tea,earl grey, hot

I think it's to normalise the idea that everybody is defined by their gender, for the benefit of people who obsessively define themselves by their gender.

This! With a side-order of speech (i.e. thought) control.

I think it's to normalise the idea that everybody is defined by their gender, for the benefit of people who obsessively define themselves by their gender.
Agreed, merrimouse!

I don't think it's to avoid outing trans people, the majority of whom are probably less likely to be misgendered than somebody called Dr Jo Smith.

I think it's to normalise the idea that everybody is defined by their gender, for the benefit of people who obsessively define themselves by their gender.

Having everyone state their pronouns on email/social media/professional documents would achieve the aim of giving trans people cover as if every women states her preferred pronouns as she/her, it doesn't look out of place when a trans woman does it.

But this is the bit I don't get. If the transwoman has a female name and looks female, then everyone will automatically use female pronouns. If they look male and/or have a male name, then there is no 'cover' because their appearance/name outs them as trans/male if they say they want people to use female pronouns for them. So there's no need for everyone else to say what their pronouns are to avoid outing trans people.

Obviously none of this applies for people you never meet
Indeed, the post I was responding to mainly regarded emails.

I should make clear that I agree with none of this. I'm a scientist. Although my main area isn't human biology, I can't put everything I k Ow to be factually correct aside for a belief. Pronouns aren't even about self identification, they are policing the words of others, and trying to change the innate perceptions of others. Having everyone state their pronouns on email/social media/professional documents would achieve the aim of giving trans people cover as if every women states her preferred pronouns as she/her, it doesn't look out of place when a trans woman does it. I understand why they would want that. In of itself, I don't have a problem if people want to do that. I do, however, see it as a slippery slope. I won't be telling everyone my pronouns. And I say this as someone who is misgendered, in email and in person. I work in a male dominated job and sector. I have short hair, broad shoulders, big biceps and have an almost tenor voice. I am a woman. I was born a woman. I'm really glad I'm not growing up now.

Therefore, in order to maintain cover, having everyone declare pronouns, trans or not, makes it no longer a marker for being trans.

How does that work, then? Anyone using they/them pronouns is obviously trans. Anyone using pronouns which are at odds with their appearance is obviously trans. For the tiny number of trans people who 'pass' as the opposite sex, people would automatically use the pronouns for the sex they perceive them to be, so declaring pronouns is unnecessary.

Obviously none of this applies for people you never meet - as on the internet. But on the internet you can be anyone you want to be, anyway.

Some of the questions are also utterly daft to self-identify in terms of privilege, surely? If I hung around more genuinely wealthy people I would likely be inclined to rate myself much lower on that slider - but surely my own perception of my level of financial security/wealth changing over time does not actually change my privilege in that respect.

79% of people are more privileged than me, apparently. That may in large part be because it detected my location and thus asked me whether the relevant language was my first or second, and whether I was born here or not. Certainly those details have often impacted my treatment in this country, but not at all in the same way a lot of others here giving the same answer experience...

68% of people are more privileged than me

Ive no idea how thats worked out as i bet im more privileged than loads of people

Not overly educated...got A levels

Left it in the middle of cis/trans

Everything else was one end or the other ...cept rich

Its weird

Why would you need to know? English only uses sexed pronouns in the third person, so they are never relevant when you are talking to somebody face to face.

You are not supposed to misgender people even if they aren't around. Given that we are a sexually dimorphic species, we are programmed to identify someone's sex with high speed and accuracy. This means if we start talking about a person with the pronouns we assume, it's likely we will do so face to face. It takes a great deal of effort and concentration to remember to use pronouns that go against this ingrained way of thinking. But my point was, self-declaring pronouns marks someone out as trans. This can cause discrimination, I am sure. Therefore, in order to maintain cover, having everyone declare pronouns, trans or not, makes it no longer a marker for being trans. I assume that this is desirable for some.

That's the one, seadragon The comments are pretty funny.

Apparently 73% of people are more privileged than me. Shit, my life is so tough, and I never knew

Vitriol

If it’s the same website as this intersectionalityscore.com/ then I’m not sure if they’re serious either. I did the test and am apparently more privileged than 99% of the population (intersectionality score of 3). Go me. I think.

"The only way around this is to have everyone self-declare pronouns, trans or not."

Why would you need to know? English only uses sexed pronouns in the third person, so they are never relevant when you are talking to somebody face to face. If you make a big deal about pronouns, you are are imposing the concept of gender, when for centuries women have fought to be regarded simply as human beings.

If somebody wants to be referred to using a particular pronoun, fine, but that should be as simple as saying "My name is William but I am always called Bill" or "I don't take milk in tea". There is no need to make everyone declare their gender.

Would pronouns count as "sensitive data" under GDPR? And would it therefore be fine to volunteer them and not for employers to require them, especially to require them to be advertised in communications?

One transactivist has certainly worried about this before!

twitter.com/miss_s_b/status/976379005921357825

The definition of sensitive personal data under GDPR is data consisting of racial or ethnic origin, political opinions, religious or philosophical beliefs, or trade union membership, genetic data, biometric data, data concerning health or data concerning a natural person's sex life or sexual orientation.

www.burges-salmon.com/news-and-insight/legal-updates/gdpr-personal-data-and-sensitive-personal-data/

If your pronouns are held to reflect your inner psychological state of "gender identity", they might count as at least one of

*Privileged medical data under both the Data Protection Act as they disclose information that only a mental health professional might normally know. Compare the state of "feeling female", if that is indeed possible, to the state of feeling depressed.

*A privileged political opinion, religious or philosophical belief, namely that gender identity is something you can or cannot have. If you have the philosophical belief that you cannot determine your own pronouns, asking you for your pronouns forces you to disclose this sensitive data, and requiring them may also force you to lie (in breach of EHR article 9).

The corollary is that any organisation which stores pronouns would also be in receipt of such sensitive medical or philosophical information and would be counted as a data controller under the GDPR, and must obey the conditions for processing sensitive data (broadly, that the storage must be necessary for carrying out obligations), with very large fines issued for breaches. Organisations must issue extensive record keeping principles to show they are satisfying the principle of lawful processing. See:
www.burges-salmon.com/news-and-insight/legal-updates/gdpr-data-protection-principles/

This has not been tested in court and is my general ignorant musing interpretation only. Just throwing it out there!

The only reason to ask everyone to state their pronouns is to avoid a logical problem. Courtesy it may be to ask somebody which pronouns they prefer, but what you are actually saying is, 'I stronly suspect that you are not the sex class you present as. What should I call you?' The only way around this is to have everyone self-declare pronouns, trans or not.

It is discourteous in the extreme to compel a person's speech, to deny them their perceptions, to force them to lie.

You want to avoid a logical problem? here's a logical statement for you that will prevent any problem: she is a human female, he is a human male.

If I turned up in a baronet's crown and ermine, you might well suspect that I am not the class I present as. Yet by your reasoning it would be discourteous to refuse to refer to me as 'milady'.

I think we should just cut to the chase and put a little graphic in signatures showing our privilege level calculated by the intersections.

(Yes it's a real graphic from a real website. I don't know if it's satire or not, having trouble with my satire-radar these days...)

"Hi David, thanks for sending me the minutes of that meeting - unfortunately though you forgot to make it clear in your email whether or not you're currently pregnant. I know that this is a pressing issue for men these days, so please correct it for next time. Best regards, Grabthar (white british, 35, not pregnant or on maternity, has not undergone gender reassignment, atheist, unmarried, heteroflexible cross-orientation demisexual agender nonbinary femme, pronouns: just "milady" for first, second, and third person speech)"

Brilliant

Pronouns: "who's 'she', the cat's mother?" Yes - standard practice to say that where I live.

What getting ordained online into some fake American church and insisting on being referred to as 'Reverend'. That would work.

then I can use "ta"

Imagine the confusion up North where I’m from originally.

“What are your pronouns, love?”

“Ta”

“You’re welcome love, but is you a he or a she?”

I was asked to add mine to my work email signature. I said no, I’d rather not and that was that.

Or we could accept people make mistakes, correct them and get on with it.

People sometimes assume in correspondence that I'm male because I'm "Dr Theorem". I don't get mardy, I just correct them. Though it is a major source of annoyance that people default to "male" for professional qualifications - I would guess every professional woman in a STEM subject has been "mis-sexed" on occasion simply because people default to the "scientist/engineer - must be male" stereotype. If I put Ms down as a title, they assume I'm divorced. Again I don't get mardy with them (I may roll my eyes a bit inwardly), I just correct them and we move on.

The only reason to ask everyone to state their pronouns is to avoid a logical problem. Courtesy it may be to ask somebody which pronouns they prefer, but what you are actually saying is, 'I stronly suspect that you are not the sex class you present as. What should I call you?' The only way around this is to have everyone self-declare pronouns, trans or not.

I am going to identify as a Mandarin speaker, then I can use "ta" which, when spoken or written in Pinyin, is the same for he and she. (When written in traditional characters, "she" has the radical for woman in it, which is kind of nice ).