Are you a real woman?

Lass may have views that coincide with feminism, like anti porn, but so do right wing conservatives.

I clash with her all the time on here due to her anti feminist views

Lass is not just not a feminist but actively anti feminist

Hmm I don't get that from her posts, and a fair few opinions of hers that I have seen posted over the years. She may proudly proclaim anti-feminism (though also not something I have persnally seen) but..a lot of her opinions seem to go with general feminist thinking to be quite honest.

Kind of reminded of a few blokes I have known in my life who think MRA is someone who actually just cares about the rights of men, rather than what it actually is. So will proclaim themselves MRAs, whilst being against male violence and willing to pull men up on it, while thinking 'those dicks who hate feminists and take what they say as a personal slight are weird' and so on, just still having the 'expecting women to do everything' wails of 'feminists should care more about male suicide though. And that.

If lass has proclaimed herself a proud anti-feminist I do not mean to place her in the same category as Proud MRAs, who are actually the opposite of MRAs though.

Either way I certainly value lasses contributions on here much much more than the massively overbearing purposeful trolls we have had on soo many FWR threads (usually trans ones) recently. My god, those ones are annoying and clearly do just come on here to pick pick pick. I wish I was better at ignoring them, but they manage to rile me, with their obvious obvious dickpandering and lack of caring about women in any situation. The sock puppetting I think goes on too, is obviously an issue if I am correct. And the tagteam type way they post is fucking annoying too, all the 'you are so right, everyone can see it but noone else dares say anything besides us, but we get hundreds of PMs per thread for our efforts in representing the silent majority!' nonsense.

I do understand some people see this section as..well a support section in a way though. And as such, understand why they get a bit annoyed with those who are not feminist (sometimes by any stretch of the imagination) consistently posting. I guess this post is me going against the hive mind, or something. Or those posting that they see antifeminists posting on FWR as trolling (tbf I agree when its people who actually appear to have no femnist beliefs whatsoever yet come on here just to tell other women off) are going against the hive. Could be either!

No one has to be nice to Lass. You're quite free to disagree with her disagreeably. I have myself a number of times. I know Lass doesn't call herself a feminist, actively says she isn't, but I do 't agree with calling someone who takes such a strong stand on porn, prostitution etc. anti-feminist.

FWIW, I see your point here, Lass, but I didn't see the comments from SomeDyke in context, and I can imagine a line of argument where someone would ask a question about various assumptions that we all go along with like getting married etc. which is often why married women come out in later life.

But I take your point that there is a context where that could be just as unwelcome as some of the milder rapeyness from the AWAs. But it's rare enough in comparison to be ineffective in making your point particularly strong here.

Nobody is telling you to do any such thing. Your lesbophobic language is gross.

Radical feminism asks a question about female sexuality and heteronormativity, and how patriarchy influences that.

Nobody asked any hetero woman to do anything other than think about patriarchy and heteronormativity and how that affects women. It’s not that posters fault there are people lacking the intelligence to understand that. To compare it to trans saying lesbians must do dick is to display a stunning level of ignorance around feminism and more than a little of your own prejudice.

Erythronium

Anti-feminism on a feminist board istrolling. It doesn't fit the Mumsnet criteria for trolling though I believe

Please feel free to report me.

Anti-feminism on a feminist board is trolling. It doesn't fit the Mumsnet criteria for trolling though I believe.

Lass is not just not a feminist but actively anti feminist and I reserve my right to call her out when she misrepresents feminists on fwr and accuses them of being the same as coercive men, when they aren't here to defend themselves.

Agreed. Total misrepresentation of the copied quote. I too get irritated that we are expected to be nice about anti feminist comments on a feminism board. That’s what this board is for: feminism.

Lass is not just not a feminist but actively anti feminist and I reserve my right to call her out when she misrepresents feminists on fwr and accuses them of being the same as coercive men, when they aren't here to defend themselves.

I have no idea who said what she quoted or when and I'm not happy to leave that accusation to stand.

That's my right on here.

Agreeing to disagree.

Intetesting that some posters see lass's quote from another woman asking people to consider an idea (what would sexuality look like outside of patriarcjy) as the same as tw telling lesbians they must do dick.

I'm a bit surprised about that but, if that's what you believe then fair enough.

Disagreement is good. I’m glad we can do it here without telling each other to go die in a grease fire.

I used to think the ‘echo chambers’ of social media were exaggerated until I learned about mass blocking tools. Now I am thankful for Mumsnet where blocking is impossible and we don’t even have avatars to form judgements on, let alone selfies. It’s all just words, I think there is something unusually healthy about that.

I like Lass. I'm sure she doesn't need me to approve of her, though. I like that she posts as she feels like and I agree with and admire her stance against prostitution, pornography and surrogacy. I especially like that she really isn't tribal, even though that often means she will not be on the same 'side' as me in a disagreement, and she's often better at me at crafting an argument. She can get on my wick occasionally, too.

Just a few thoughts from my corner of the hive mind.

Bold fail

(Remind me again of the bit about not being a hive mind?*

Well I actually appreciate your posts lass, despite you saying you are not a feminist. I prefer when theres someone to disagree with on threads, as they would be pretty pointless if every thread was just people agreeing constantly. Which luckily, they are not. Or are very very rarely (such as the current thread, about gay men sexually harassing a 15 year old girl..thats pretty unanimous). Even those who do call themselves feminists disagree fairly often. Which is why the constant 'hive mind' accusations when like, one person says something thats unliked..kind of annoys me. But hive mind stuff is a bit daft anyway, given how much we all disagree on various things.

I disagree that people who are not feminists should not post here though. With the exception of the ridiculous MRAs we get who are clearly here to troll mind, though sometimes, those can be fun. Usually just fucking annoying though.

Lol at lass' wilful misinterpretation of that post and drawing equivalence between 'consider this' and 'you must service cock or you are a terrible person'

I always think people who use "lol" are about 14 years old. Nice twisting and reinventing of what I said.

Don't you every get bored of this? Needling feminists?

I love this bit- "needling feminists". Oh how very dreadful of me.

Remind me again of the bit about not being a hive mind? Or how often I read on here that women are being silenced? I am a woman. I am very interested in matters which affect women- are only feminists allowed to be concerned about that?

A fake woman would be someone who was born with a penis, testicles and the Y chromosome.

Lol at lass' wilful misinterpretation of that post and drawing equivalence between 'consider this' and 'you must service cock or you are a terrible person'

:D

Don't you every get bored of this? Needling feminists? You've been doing it for literally years. You're not a feminist you don't agree with feminism. You've said that yourself on here, years ago again. Maybe more recently who knows. What do you get it out of it? It can't be good for your blood pressure. Like me posting in an mra site or a pro trump site or something.

I think it's men who have always classified women into types, stereotypes isn't it. Men and sexists.

'Having had a negative penis related experience or not finding penises arousing are of course valid reasons to be hesitant,'

Even if you've been raped a straight no it's not allowed.

You can be hesitant. No more. Interestingly hesitant implies wasn't sure but did it in the end. So women irrespective of sexuality, experience , personal preference should never say no to dick, if they do they are bad people.

The idea of ‘real’ women in the way feminists such as Adichie and Murray appear to be interpreting it, assumes some shared understanding of what a ‘real’ women is, based on the cogency of a socially constructed gender binary. This is an inherent contradiction, as if, as Adichie claims ‘gender is not biology, gender is sociology’, then the construct of a ‘real’ woman in any sense of the word is redundant.

What contradiction? Gender is sociology, but woman is not gender, woman is matured female sex. Femininity is gender.

Wow, that article. I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone work so hard to miss the point. It’s like the point was dancing around in front of her waving a big sign saying “this is the point”, and she was just turning round in circles saying no, no, there must be something somewhere.

Yes men were always deeply respectful of older women before this handful of progs on the tv and radio And telling them that we are all suffering from something that makes us mentally ill for approximately ten years is a great step forward.

Why can't we have a balanced view, why not be aware that this can be a difficult time for some but a non event for others and for others a liberating time. Why does it always need to be extremes?

Feminists should...

Ho hum when have we heard that before

(Did Willoughby really work at the Dorchester hotel?)

Horsewithnoregrets The article was confusingly written. That bit only makes sense if you know it refers to an interview Jenni Murray did with India Willoughby which Murray wrote about later in The Sunday Times and which was praised up thread by another poster:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/be-trans-be-proud-but-dont-call-yourself-a-real-woman-

You need a subscription or email address to read the full thing but here is a summary:

www.pressgazette.co.uk/transgender-journalist-india-willoughby-says-bbcs-jenni-murry-should-be-sacked-over-sunday-times-article/

Murray’s point that India Willoughby’s earlier life had not prepared her to understand what it would be like to need to pay for tights, manicures etc on a minimum wage salary seems reasonable to me. I believe India W also said that unshaven legs were ‘dirty’ and Murray pointed out that India Willoughby did not seem to appreciate that decisions about retaining or removing women’s body hair are influenced by societal expectations.

I'd just like to remind youLassofFyviethat the assumption was thatallof us claim this. As has been previously pointed out ad nauseam, we are not a hive mind

Whose assumption are you referring to?

I didn't say all of you. I said "much feminist writing" and gave you particular examples.