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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

ok I'm a man and I would appreciate some advice

37 replies

DanganropaFlys · 05/07/2019 20:08

I'm prepared to take what you say no matter how hard it difficult to hear.

I don't want to be considered a "feminist" man. The few I've met, tend to use it to be overly creepy dudes and hut in you g women in what I consider an inappropriate way - my sample population is 2.

Also I don't want to be a woke joke.

My dd's are gearing up for Pride. I'm proud of them for doing it, I try to explain things that are red flag behaviours in men. I'll be honest, I've done some of them in the past, when I was younger. I've also haven't been that good in relationships in the past and I haven't been the best, needy, entitled, demanding. I hope I've learnt my lessons. There have been s couple if threads here in feminist chat and on AIBU that have been eye openers, well not really eye openers but have convinced me that I need to seek advice on how to be not a "feminist" bloke but try to use behaviour and language in such a way that, that I don't come across as weird, creepy, it have just plain old got it wrong.. I'd like to lead by example to other men too.

So my question, how could I go about achieving this aim, what advice would you give to a old man trying to figure this out?

OP posts:
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KTara · 06/07/2019 18:28

Vindication of the Rights of Women was also a response to Rousseau, though, who argued that girls should be educated relative to man and not equal. Wollstonecraft partly agreed with the premise but not the proposal, if I recall correctly - namely she argued that girls should be educated equally to help them better fulfil their natural caring duties. They were radical arguments for their time but they are still predicated on difference and the idea that women are innate caregivers.
Men’s role and interest in their children was as educators, not care-givers.
I think it was more of an argument for equality in difference than equality per se

placemats · 06/07/2019 16:37

She did and with the help of many men also, who argued and agreed that looking after their children was as much a part of being a father as being a mother and that it was in all of humanity's interest to do this.

Dervel · 06/07/2019 16:31

Thank you for placing her work in the correct historical context. She also wrote the most comprehensive contemporaneous work on the French Revolution.

placemats · 06/07/2019 16:15

Mary Wollstoncraft didn't just come up with that book off her own bat though, like no human ever because books are written due to influence and education.

She knew the history of women's rights. And of course it was a response, on behalf of women, to Edmund Burke's A Vindication of the Rights of Man.

Dervel · 06/07/2019 15:50

Try not to micromanage other people’s reactions. Like if someone finds you creepy that’s their authentic reaction to the interaction. You may not BE creepy, but it’s gonna make it worse if you try to superimpose your version of the narrative. It’s more time to go back into the mind lab and refine how you go about doing things.

We men are used to being heard and if we feel we haven’t come across how we wished we have a tendency from entitlement to feel we can force our truth across.

Maybe pick up some books I’d recommend Mary Wollstoncraft’s A Vindication of The Rights of Women. I’m a big fan of classic British Liberalism and she is an essential voice in both that and women’s rights in general. HTH

placemats · 06/07/2019 15:33

Yes to don't watch porn. Men as humans, have a wonderful imagination. Use it!

Don't be lazy in work and expect the woman to do the 'extras'.

Don't use prostitutes.

See women as humans, just as you see men.

Never presume!

sakura184 · 06/07/2019 14:48

The best thing men can do for women is not watch porn and/or educate other men not to watch porn.

What men really shouldn't be doing is wasting feminists' time and energy. Male feminists and even male allies are such an energy drain on women and have a habit of making things all about them or often mansplaining and even becoming "feminist leaders" or feminist academics ( inevitably taking women's jobs by teaching women's studies at universities)

lottiegarbanzo · 06/07/2019 12:21

That too. And always challenge other men who are disrespectful towards women. Do not give your dds the impression that their equality is for them alone to fight for, some sort of special interest issue. Equality and a decent society is everyone's issue.

Angryresister · 06/07/2019 12:18

Don't do porn and tell your friends not to do porn.

lottiegarbanzo · 06/07/2019 12:09

I think the biggest thing you can do is always listen to them and believe them, thereby encourage them to believe that it is normal and to be expected, for them to be listened to and believed.

If something doesn't make sense, or surprises or shocks you, listen some more, ask open questions not closed ones and listen further, rather than imposing your own assumptions, so you can find out what it is they're actually telling you.

So much that's wrong about how women and girls are treated starts from other people, men and women, telling them that their lived experiences are not real or important. Usually becasue the 'hearer' (not listener) doesn't want to challenge their own beliefs and preferences about how things are.

CrazyToast · 06/07/2019 12:02

It's a constant work in progress, learning to be feminist.

Great that you are aware and asking the questions, willing to learn and admit mistakes.

I'm happy to see this post.

As for DDs, just be a dad, urge them to keep safe and support them when they come to you having experienced the worse sides of life.

Whatisthisfuckery · 06/07/2019 12:00

OP I don’t think Pride is an appropriate place for your DDs. Accompany them at least. It’ll take you about 5 seconds to see what we mean.

I am a lesbian btw, and I don’t go anymore.It’s not a place for me and my lesbian sisters.

KTara · 06/07/2019 11:03

Random ‘because’ in that post - apologies

KTara · 06/07/2019 11:02

Advice for free: don’t put down your wife on a feminist forum...

As I now understand your question, you are asking if there is a feminist/woman version of Pride? And how to help your DD’s find this and become more involved? Sometimes it is only when young women come up against discrimination that they see the need for feminism. Other young women are interested because for various reasons, while some are never interested at all - which is fine, they do not have to be.

I think my honest advice here is to let your DDs find their own direction. That said, I am not sure I would be comfortable with my preteen and younger teen attending Pride, given some of the things I have read on here - but my older teen I would let make up her own mind.

DanganropaFlys · 06/07/2019 10:17

The bit I said about language, it's not so much my written or spoken language to other, it's more my internal language, through upbringing and environment and circumstance I find that, even though I can police easily what I say, I still have to police it.

Pride, they are still early teens and preteens. I don't know how they view their secuality, I've not asked and when they are ready to tell me, they will tell me. What I don't know is how I could help them to seek out the equivalent for feminist issues and become involved. My DW steers more towards Katie Hopkins and isn't interested.

I now realise I was asking the wrong things in the wrong place, for a question I really hadn't thought through.

OP posts:
Datun · 06/07/2019 01:00

Oh, and the other thing. For one week only, whenever you open your newspaper, write down how many articles are about male violence. Just as an exercise. A series of ticks. For one week.

And then look and see whether or not the words male violence are ever used.

Datun · 06/07/2019 00:59

There are zillions of things. But one of the things you can do is notice what films you watch and what media does.

Rape scenes, gratuitous sexual violence towards women, it's all served up for your entertainment. And it's telling your daughters exactly what society thinks of them.

Next time you watch a movie and a woman is raped, ask yourself why the producers, actors, directors and financiers think you would like to see that.

BatShite · 06/07/2019 00:16

Why would creepy hetero men be at Pride?

Erm, I guess you have missed a lot of recent changes with pride. Its basically geared towards creepy hetero men these days

ALittleBitofVitriol · 06/07/2019 00:09

I didn't see one please from the op. Hmm lots of 'I' though...

There are a plethora of feminist books/articles. They are not hard to find. Here's one, and that's my free labour for random males used up for the day. www.feministcurrent.com/2017/09/26/justin-trudeau-accidentally-demonstrates-men-shouldnt-call-feminist/

lottiegarbanzo · 06/07/2019 00:03

I don't understand the bit about Pride. Are they lesbians? In which case what's the issue? Why would creepy hetero men be at Pride? I am missing something, clearly...

Doobigetta · 05/07/2019 23:49

Call other men out for their shit behaviour. Every time. Help make it not ok to be like that.

KTara · 05/07/2019 22:17

Indeed Lang - while I do not doubt the OP’s intentions, this is the first time I have sat down all day... my time is too precious.

That said, there are some good male allies on Twitter - for example Luke and Ryan Hart @CoCoAwareness and Man at work @MichaelConroy68 who give what seems to me excellent advice targeted at men. Start there.

OhHolyJesus · 05/07/2019 22:12

Not getting into a row but it's a parenting forum and I welcome the question OP.

Do some reading in the FWR (for women's rights) boards though and specifically Pride stuff. You don't say how old you're daughters are but Pride looks a bit different these days it appears. I have never been but I'm now very aware of the fetish on display even when they are billed as family friendly events.

As for language, I'm keen not to police language, as are many of us on here, so not sure exactly how to help but the fact you are asking is good - keep reading you'll learn from that alone I'm sure.

LangCleg · 05/07/2019 21:56

My advice would be: don't ask for women's labour on a feminist forum. It's open. You can read it for yourself. You don't need Extra Special Replies For The Visiting Man.

Blitheringheights · 05/07/2019 21:43

I think in a political sense, reading and thinking about some of the issues that are going to affect your daughters... are they going to get paid significantly less than men, why is that? What are the subtle ways in which women are penalised?

Things like it taking longer to get work done because some men respond more slowly to women instructing them than they do to men:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/gender-inequality-man-woman-switch-names-week-martin-schneider-nicky-knacks-pay-gap-a7622201.html%3famp

The pervasive teaching of girls to be ‘nice’ is addressed in this Atlantic piece on the values inculcated by girls’ activities of ballet, chess or football:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/278386/

It’s a fascinating read.

The toll of the mental load etc:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic