MN editorial on how wonderful surrogacy is

Should have said, it can't be the question and the premise, or it's begging the question.

Being pregnant and giving birth are not occupations.

That's the question, isn't it. Those who think they aren't don't think it should be allowed.

But it can't be the argument and the premise it's begging the question.

If risk of death is given as an argument for disallowing it as an occupation, it's reasonable to see how it compares to other sorts of occupations. tHe fact is, we don't stop people from getting paid for work that is very dangerous, can maim you for life, etc. We might put conditions on it but we don't say it is therefore not legitimate work.

If surrogacy is not legitimate work, that is not the reason.

I imagine the numbers of actually “altruistic” surrogacy are tiny. Mothers for daughters, or sisters for sisters etc. Even though commercial surrogacy is illegal here, “expenses” are allowed.
How many affluent and emotionally healthy women act as surrogates for strangers ?

Being pregnant and giving birth are not occupations.

I don't know that I find chance of death a convincing argument. My brother in law is a clearance diver, a very dangerous occupation. We don't generally stop people from being astronauts, arctic fishermen, underwater welders, or anything else, because it is too dangerous. Most of those jobs are almost exclusively male occupations, too.

I don't think that is where the issues around surrogacy lie.

I know maternal death rates vary from country to country. The USA had a particularly high maternal death rate, the UK isn't so bad.
When death is a possible risk, I question why anyone thinks their right to have a baby is more important than a woman's life. Misogyny pure and simple and an utter devaluation of women as people.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/07/01/couples-paying-60000-surrogates-despite-uk-system-reasonable/

There is no upper limit for 'reasonable expenses' it seems. So basicall, paid surrogacy is legal in the UK, despite what is claimed. The average seems to be 12-15k to be paid, but some pay much much more. These cases would be classed as 'altruistic', when clearly, they are not.

How do you define altruistic surrogacy though?

Exactly. Paid surrogacy is illegal in Canada. It is all “altruistic”. It is still ripe for abuse, dishonesty, misogyny, and greed, usually at the cost of the surrogates and the babies.

I know of two families in my “circle” who used surrogacy.

One was a gay couple who used their “this is our dream” story to crowdfund costs to move their baby from one province to another (born with medical needs that required ambulatory transport) while not telling their donors they also were in process of buying millions in personal and commercial real estate.

Another couple had three failed adoptions before her 60+ year old mother acted as a surrogate. I don’t know all the circumstances of the latter as to how they agreed to that, but it was a high risk pregnancy. Baby is as far as I know okay but it could have gone very differently.

DonorConceivedMe

And I think stories like yours should widen the debate to look at the impact of donor conception and adoption too as well as surrogacy.

I guess children who don't know who their father is may also be affected but society pays little regard to them.

How do you define altruistic surrogacy though? That can be anything from a woman offering to help her sister, through to the case I linked above where a woman with learning disabilities and in financial difficulty was recruited via Facebook and offered a few grand expenses by total strangers, including £1000 extra if she needed a hysterectomy.

Quite. 'Altruistic surrogacy' from what I have read, seems to be the same as paid in many cases, just the cash is made out to be for 'expenses' instead of actual payment.

What adoptees find particularly galling is the language used in adoption. They think it's especially gross that babies are thought of as "gifts" from the birth mother.
Imagine how the babies of surrogates are going to feel! They can't even have the "gift" narrative. Their birth story will literally be: we used your mother as an incubator

But I don't think we make it easier by opening up more possibilities. In many cases the opposite, the more possibilities the harder it is to get to a place of acceptance.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. We often think of possibilities as being a good thing but the drive to keep trying until you've exhausted all options can be devastating.

*Kokeshi123
*
These outcomes appear to have nothing in common with the outcomes for children adopted at birth, where high rates of attachment disorders and other issues are noted.

I follow Facebook groups for adult adoptees. They are furious that they were adopted at birth in closed adoptions. They all regard their birth mother as their mother.

Surrogacy hasn't taken place on an industrial scale yet, like adoption. If it does I'm sure we'll start to see similar stories as we do with adoptees. Once they're allowed to talk. Adoptees have had major issues with being silenced because their voices and stories don't fit in with the happy narrative.

And I’m a living, breathing witness to the fact that donor conception, at least, is not universally accepted by its products.

My dds were watching a programme where one of the contestants, a gay man , had children from a surrogate. They were both shocked, and asked how he could have had a baby. “So he bought them “ ?
I explained about surrogacy and why I think it is a bad thing. Seeing the reaction of my sensitive, thoughtful younger dd ( 12) made me even more convinced. She was upset that a baby could be taken from the mother like this.
We should be looking at countries where surrogacy is banned, not towards the cesspit that is the US.

Yes there are @decomposingcomposers and one of them is referenced on here.

GlitchStitch

I see it as being a spectrum. At one end is the mother who, without pressure or coercion, decides to be a surrogate for her daughter at the other extreme are the women, in an almost baby factory situation, exploited to be surrogates for rich women. At some point on that spectrum is where I would draw the line, although I'm not sure quite where but much much closer to the start than the end.

For sure it's not as easy as just saying "you need to accept it".

Yes, this is true, it's a very human problem and many people have to work at acceptance and many fail and probably always will. Be it death, old age, family situations, not getting into a particular career path, not being loved by the person who loves us, not having large breasts, the realities of being a mother, being the wrong sex.... some of those are more serious than others but they are all things people can feel are very significant to their happiness or their identity or ability to live. Acceptance can seem like failure or require a whole new way of thinking about yourself.

But I don't think we make it easier by opening up more possibilities. In many cases the opposite, the more possibilities the harder it is to get to a place of acceptance. I heard a very interesting interview a few years ago with the wife of someone I knew, she had MS. They were asking her about a new treatment that wasn't yet approved and whether it should be, and then funded. One of the things she mentioned was that people with big issues like that are very vulnerable to every new thing, new possibility, and constantly chasing those can be bother personally and financially draining. She saw that in itself as a reason for the government to avoid approving new things just to provide more options when they weren't in themselves well supported.

You do see the same thing with death - the possibility of doing one more thing can make it harder to do the psychological work of acceptance. Which is always required in the end.

How do you define altruistic surrogacy though? That can be anything from a woman offering to help her sister, through to the case I linked above where a woman with learning disabilities and in financial difficulty was recruited via Facebook and offered a few grand expenses by total strangers, including £1000 extra if she needed a hysterectomy.

*widely

It was the studies by Susan Golombok that I looked at (I only skim read them and haven’t read any more wifey in the subject).

academic.oup.com/humupd/article/22/2/260/2457841

The long-term outcomes for children born through surrogacy are basically fine, and about the same as children born the "regular" way.

These outcomes appear to have nothing in common with the outcomes for children adopted at birth, where high rates of attachment disorders and other issues are noted.

The high rates of problems for adopted children most likely stem from other sources (genetic background, harm from drug abuse during gestation etc.).

I think altruistic surrogacy is fine, though I am against commercial surrogacy.

I find the surrogacy debate very complicated. Firstly as someone who has conceived quickly for both pregnancies. I really cannot judge someone who is struggling with fertility I have a friend who after 7 years of IVF decided to give up only to conceive naturally at 40. Convinced that would be their only child, shocked to conceive number two at 43. Yes she was an outlier, but she was incredibly honest and open about the pain and frustration her initial inability to fall pregnant caused.

I can understand and sympathise with those women that volunteer to be a surrogate for family members whether their inability to conceive is due to infertility or sexuality. Yes volunteer may not always be the correct term because I'm sure there can be external pressures that could have informed their decision. That doesn't sit comfortably with me. Especially in the cases of paid surrogates. Those when people with an obvious economic advantage are paying disadvantaged women to basically be incubators.

A complicated minefield.

Last time this came up I looked it up and the studies I read didn’t show evidence of harm to the children involved. I’ll have another search see if I can find them again.

Ineedacupofteadesperately

And that excerpt is really sad, but is that just one person's experience? If so, can you really extrapolate that to cover all children born by surrogacy?
We could find equally sad stories from children raised by birth parents I'm sure.

My husband doesn't know his dad, his mum and dad were very young and didn't stay together. 50 odd years later I know that still affects my DH now, the not knowing where half of him comes from - that doesn't mean that relationships outside of marriage are banned though does it, because lots of children have good relationships with both parents even though they are separated.