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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Grooming of Parents and Society

81 replies

ChickenonaMug · 03/07/2019 13:28

I have been thinking about this topic for a few days after seeing some pictures at the weekend of a library's Drag Queen Story Time.

So imagine you spoke to fifty or so loving parents of small children 0 - 5 yrs and told them that in a months time they would find themselves watching as a complete stranger - a man, lies down on the floor and invites their young children to lie across his clothed groin area.

Imagine if you told these parents that instead of reacting in horror that they would actually encourage their child to do so, in fact they would laugh along and celebrate as their own child or other children wriggled about on this man's groin.

Imagine if you told these parents that on this particular day they would teach their child to overcome their natural reticence to engage with this man and that the child will come away with a more confused understanding of how the boundaries that should exist between children and adults work.

Finally, imagine if you told these loving and normally very careful parents that in a months time they - the parents would be 'groomed' to ignore the boundaries that should exist to keep a child safer from sexual abuse and that once they have lost sight of these boundaries their child will now be significantly more vulnerable to harm from someone (either stranger, family or friend) who chooses to sexually abuse them.

I would expect that each of these parents would deny that this would or could happen. Except this is not an imaginary scenario. It really happened. About fifty parents took their children to a Drag Queen Story Time at a library in the US. The photos show the parents and library staff clearly enjoying a sort of party atmosphere, where they drape their children in party colours. The drag queen who is wearing, incredibly heavy make up, reads to the children and then afterwards the children are encouraged to meet him (not misgendering as he is not transgender) and dance with him. Some of the children look worried about being close to him, so their parents respond by handing them over to be held by him. Somehow or another the drag queen ends up on the floor and can be seen holding out his arms as if inviting children to lay on him and they do and the parents all watch happily.

I am not commenting on the intentions of the Drag Queen in inviting children to lie on his groin. I do not know what he was thinking or feeling or what his intentions were but then neither do those parents and they were supposed to be safeguarding their children from possible harm and abuse. These parents were also supposed to be teaching and demonstrating appropriate boundaries to their children, so what happened to make about fifty parents ignore everything that they know they shouldn't?

Abusers (I am not saying that this particular man is or is not. I am just saying that his behaviour breaks the boundaries that exist to protect children) know that the most important people to groom are not the children but the adults who are supposed to be keeping the children safe. Once the adults have been groomed then it is very easy for abuser to groom a child. Not only will a child look to her parents or whoever for reassurance that an abuser can be trusted and that therefore their behaviour must be acceptable, but also when that child realises what is happening to her and looks around for an adult to tell then all she will see is adults and a society who appear to be deluded as to a person's true character. It is amazing how hard it is for a child to even attempt to break through adults' delusion about an individual or groups behaviour.

I am not saying that any particular group of males is more likely than any other to abuse children. This is about how abusers will use anything and everything to groom parents and other adults in order to abuse children. They will not necessarily always need to do the grooming themselves as society has always been very good at holding up certain groups of people on a pedestal and making them untouchable by criticism. Abusers just need to become part of a group that is rarely scrutinised.

Equally society seems very intent at the moment to allow in a narrative in that breaks down boundaries between children and the sexuality of adults and between males and the needs of females to safe spaces. This narrative also encourages those trying to uphold them to be shamed for moralism, erotophobia (a word used by Tatchell) or bigotry.

Without a doubt I think that abusers will take full advantage of any breakdown in safeguarding frameworks and understanding. As usual children will be the ones to suffer the consequences of too many adults' inability to understand when they are putting children at risk in order to fulfil their own needs including the more modern need to appear progressive, kind and inclusive.

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placemats · 05/07/2019 14:49

Yeah but there's such a thing as being up your own arse as well. I thought it was stupid, but quite funny.

Well, aren't you the charmer.

Did you think, Juells, the OP was too long?

Juells · 05/07/2019 14:31

I just came across this interesting video by an American paediatrician which is really about grooming children to believe it's possible to change sex.

placemats

Some posters, albeit a vocal minority think that the baby vest message is fine and it's all a bit of a joke.

Yeah but there's such a thing as being up your own arse as well. I thought it was stupid, but quite funny.

DanaPhoenix · 05/07/2019 14:06

As other pp have said I would have run screaming as a child. I was almost 3 taken to a stage show, at a shopping centre, of Humphrey B Bear, a kids TV show character. When it came to the meet and greet I had a meltdown of the epic proportions only achieved by one so young.

"No Mummy. That bear has no PANTS. He's not wearing pants. Bad Bear." Funnily something I hadn't noticed on TV (small tellys in the 70's) but in real life.....
Just because someone is in a costume doesn't mean they are friendly. At Movie World I was posing for a photo with Wily E Coyote who decided to grope my breast, actually captured on film, I was 22.

If drag queens want to interact with children in a library setting, why are they not dressing as characters from children's books? How about Old Mother Hubbard? I'm sure there are countless examples they could choose. Because at least that would be linking to literacy.

MsMcWibble · 05/07/2019 08:05

I used to work at a major public attraction - the type of place where we would get lost kids quite frequently.
We were told that we could only place our hand on the child's shoulder to comfort them. This was hard to do because you want to give them a hug, but entirely sensible and actually all you need to do to show support.
What the hell happened - we used to know this stuff.
Actually, don't answer that. We know what happened.

MoleSmokes · 05/07/2019 08:00

truthisarevolutionaryact Twitter is censoring Jon K Uhler from speaking out about safeguarding issues within the trans movement. (screenshot)

twitter.com/JonKUhlerLPC/status/1138823583675899905

"Twitter has informed Jon K Uhler, MS, LPC that posting about Predators being embedded w/in the Trans Movement is offensive, and are now screened. To view Jon's unedited posts about the Sexual Predators most likely to target kids, visit SurvivorSupport.net "

The "trans movement" should be up in arms about this as, obviously, trans kids are the people most at risk from these predatory adults.

I am not holding my breath.

Evidence of unhealthy interest in trans kids by UK trans adults who donate to Mermaids, seeing trans teens first and foremost as "sex workers". (screenshot)

twitter.com/Mermaids_Gender/status/1137025141509185536

All perfectly normal, nothing to see here!

Grooming of Parents and Society
Grooming of Parents and Society
Janie143 · 05/07/2019 06:58

My best friend is a primary school teacher She was taught during teacher training to get even a receiption age child to apply it's own plaster to a graze etc if at all possible. So as not to cross a safeguarding boundary

IAmAlwaysLikeThis · 05/07/2019 06:38

"I've said it before: what does drag have to do with children's literature? Nothing."

Right. Why not have 'mechanic story time' or 'waitress story time' or 'factory worker story time'?

These kinds of woke people want access to every single place because otherwise it's discrimination. Nonsense.

placemats · 05/07/2019 06:34

It doesn't take much to groom a society and it starts when they are young. Take this thread on AIBU

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3629593-AIBU-to-think-this-Poundland-baby-vest?watched=1&msgid=88311541#88311541

Some posters, albeit a vocal minority think that the baby vest message is fine and it's all a bit of a joke.

ChickenonaMug · 04/07/2019 14:44

The bullet-proof vest of 'inclusion' combined with the blind spots of what grooming really is by many professionals in the field is a serious, serious concern.

I just wanted to say thank you MoreNiceCereal for your post. I have been thinking about it. I can certainly see that limiting the idea of grooming to essentially 'something that is done to children in order to sexual abuse them', seriously limits our understanding of what is going on.

It appears to me that societies have perhaps always been 'groomed' to accept a certain narrative, behind which people can hide the bad things that they are doing. I agree that at the moment the idea that 'inclusion' is always good, kind and progressive and therefore 'exclusion' is bad, unkind and regressive means that 'inclusion' has become a very powerful cloak of respectability to hide behind.

Diversity also runs alongside inclusion and of course both those things can be very good and important things. However in the interests of safeguarding it is equally important not to lose sight of the equal importance of the 'exclusion' of people who are not behaving appropriately around children. This means that people who appear or claim to be representing diversity should also be excluded if they behave inappropriately around children. The same values of what is appropriate should apply.

It certainly appears that in this situation in the library that this did not happen and the drag queen was allowed to behave inappropriately because the adults in the room had already been groomed to allow certain 'diverse' adults to behave differently to others, in the name of inclusion, kindness and progression.

I am realising more and more, I think, how the biggest hurdle to protecting children from sexual abuse, is the grooming of adults/society to conceal, 'permit' and protect the abusers, clearly at serious cost to the children. I don't think that it takes much to groom a society at all.

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ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 03/07/2019 21:42

Relevant comment from Pat Craven on Karen I-S letter to stonewall:

For the last 20 years we have provided the Freedom Programme for thousands of women who have been subjected to every form of physical and emotional abuse by men. So many of them have told us that their abusers had a habit of wearing women clothing and make up seemingly to confuse them. This is so common that we have included it in the list of tactics from the HEADWORKER.

terfsandwich · 03/07/2019 20:30

I've said it before: what does drag have to do with children's literature? Nothing. They've found a way to normalise their access to young children, in an event many people attend regularly. How else could they get close to children? Very difficult.

MoreNiceCereal · 03/07/2019 19:08

It’s important to be aware of unconscious bias when it comes to using the word grooming; it is frequently associated with sexual offences, but is a tool utilised in all sorts of interpersonal crimes and is a very powerful technique.

Things like compliments, gifts, mimicry of love and friendship, all the way through to blackmail and threats – all these techniques are used in the grooming process.

And in fact, all human relationships utilise grooming in one way or another. It’s used to manipulate people, but this isn’t necessarily for nefarious purposes, it’s a way to convince someone to do anything, really. One example would be managerial techniques and building relationships of trust in order to coax the best work out of a colleague.

When we recognise grooming in this wider context, we can see the patterns of behaviour in our own lives and not be blinded to it, “othering” grooming into something that only offenders do.

We as adults have been groomed our entire lives, in such situations as:

  • Parent/carer relationships
  • Education system, rewards-based programmes etc
  • Consumerism
  • Authority/government/management (see example above)

Grooming can take place by using positive or negative techniques; as long as the outcome is what the groomer desires, it makes no difference.

This awareness is especially important when it comes to enforcing safeguarding. Children who have been groomed by abusers who then get picked up by SS and are placed into counselling and other professional settings close down and become recalcitrant because they recognise the same processes are at play – to gain the child’s trust, to get private information out of the child, etc.

The definition of grooming has been oversimplified over the years in professional settings, which can lead to problems in recognising it in the first place, and therefore reduces the chances of helping a child who is being groomed. Barnardo’s Grooming Line was withdrawn in 2018, but it still influences practice today. The process is described as:

  1. Targeting Stage
  2. Friendship Forming Stage
  3. Loving Relationship Stage
  4. Abusive Relationship Stage

But this does not reflect the reality of grooming, especially online grooming. Some of the examples I've seen include immediate online threats and abuse in order to force sexual acts from a child and real chat logs from online groomers that jump straight into demands for graphic pictures.

I think this is really useful in the context of our awareness of adults grooming children online (and can this can be expanded into real life scenarios as in the OP).

The bullet-proof vest of 'inclusion' combined with the blind spots of what grooming really is by many professionals in the field is a serious, serious concern.

LassOfFyvie · 03/07/2019 18:53

I've seen a young woman being berated over her attire by a member of our cultural enrichment society

I don't know what "our cultural enrichment society " is. If you are in the UK it is hyperbolic scaremongering to say we are on the verge of Sharia law.

What the OP described is wrong. There are no circumstances where it would have been appropriate for children to be clambering over the story tellers body in this way.

HerFemaleness · 03/07/2019 18:51

I am not saying that any particular group of males is more likely than any other to abuse children. This is about how abusers will use anything and everything to groom parents and other adults in order to abuse children. They will not necessarily always need to do the grooming themselves as society has always been very good at holding up certain groups of people on a pedestal and making them untouchable by criticism. Abusers just need to become part of a group that is rarely scrutinised.

In one of many safeguarding training sessions I've sat through, we were told that men who regularly attend church are more likely to want to abuse children then a similar group picked from the public at random. Two reasons for this 1) they're seeking redemption and 2) churches are seen as soft targets, weak on safe guarding, have a culture of trust, and a culture which discourages questioning of men in leadership roles.

The second reason is very applicable to this discussion.

UserUndone · 03/07/2019 18:48

I've seen a young woman being berated over her attire by a member of our cultural enrichment society.

You can deny this happens. Look at Libya in the 70's and look at it now. I'm not wrong. I saw it going on around me so I moved to the other end of the country where I no longer feel like an immigrant. But for how long...

LassOfFyvie · 03/07/2019 18:44

We are on the verge of living under Sharia law because already women are not safe to go out alone at night, or even in the day, without being accosted or attacked for their (perfectly respectable) choice of dress

No we are not. The OP has valid points to make but this sort of overwrought hyperbole does nothing to help valid points being taken seriously.

LassOfFyvie · 03/07/2019 18:39

Either way though, surely we’ve all seen children’s entertainers who’ve had kids clambering on them, regardless of their being in drag or not?

No. I haven't. And to be honest I wasn't that keen on Santa either. I don't think I ever took my son to see an in-store Santa.

Kashali · 03/07/2019 18:00

No wonder H.ed is on the increase, i'm not sure private schools would do this shit either.
Just those who can't do anything else to educate their kids will have this pushed on them.

UserUndone · 03/07/2019 18:00

Just watch! Home schooling will be made illegal.

UserUndone · 03/07/2019 17:58

My word OP. You have so eloquently put my worst fears on screen! I hear so much on FB groups that horrify me.

The rights of women and children are very quickly being eroded, walked over, wiped out. We are on the verge of living under Sharia law because already women are not safe to go out alone at night, or even in the day, without being accosted or attacked for their (perfectly respectable) choice of dress. Or worse.

Victims of grooming gangs get little support and have been ignored for years. The future is looking very bleak.

Goosefoot · 03/07/2019 17:56

LangCleg

That is not what I said at all.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 03/07/2019 17:53

But we aren’t allowed to question certain people - beloved tv personalities, pop stars, transgender folks - I think it’s the law.

Kilbranan · 03/07/2019 17:45

It always amazes me that there can be such obvious grooming demonstrated and there are still people saying they are not sure there is anything wrong. lang has nailed it (again) - we have created a sacred caste, untouchables, beyond suspicion and it’s a child protection disaster in the making Sad

AlwaysComingHome · 03/07/2019 17:44

If this was a man in a business suit inviting children to lie on his belly we’d see that as inappropriate. If it was a man in a police uniform we’d see it as inappropriate. If it was a man in the universally recognised uniform of a geography teacher (corduroy jacket with patched elbows) we’d see it as inappropriate. Why in the name of fuck is it okay while dressed in, frankly, fetish wear?

ChickenonaMug · 03/07/2019 17:44

has come from your experience.

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