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Original poster

My daughter was assaulted tonight - why I'm against self ID

189 replies

JudgeFlounceRedRugBlah · 01/07/2019 22:06

Been around since it was all fields etc. but name changed as this concerns my children.

So, one of my children is transgender. My child is wonderful, kind and strong. I've struggled with the transgender debate because of this. They have no obvious signs of wanting to pervert womanhood just to emulate it. Imho as transgenderism should be.

I've also got daughters and, as a women, am well aware of how vulnerable a girl or woman can be when singled out and this has been borne out today. My (underage) daughter was working at her first workplace taking orders at tables in a restaurant. The staff have known her since she was born. They care for and look out for her - thank goodness. Tonight a man followed her to the toilets, pinned her and told her "he knew he shouldn't but he couldn't help himself.." sadly too many women know how this goes.

Luckily another person in the restaurant noticed a man go into the womens toilet and that neither of them came out in a reasonable amount of time. Instead of being scared that the man was a woman and they'd be in trouble with the police for hate crimes they alerted staff who got to my daughter before much more than clammy mauling had happened.

I'm angry at the sleaze who did this to my CHILD. But more I'm scared that we are fast approaching a world where that person could have felt uncomfortable raising their concerns. Perhaps they'd have hesitated just a bit longer, a bit too long. Perhaps the staff would have had a training course about jelly babies.

As it is they did say something, staff did react and my daughter is shocked, a bit scared but mostly disgusted. I can't tell you how thankful I am that she lives in a world where people are, currently, free to say "erm... that doesn't seem right".

My transgender child is going through hell in so many ways, they are battling on a frontier - I can see that - but, much as I support them, I am not prepared to sell my daughters out for it.

I'm aware I may get some backlash from posting this so I apologise now if I have to ask hq to remove. I really just wanted to say thank you to those who are not against trans people but also recognise that not against doesn't mean they have to drink the kool aid. Those who are fighting so hard just to have a proper discussion about it all. Thank you Flowers

OP posts:
Voice0fReason · 02/07/2019 23:00

Your poor daughter. No-one should ever have to suffer that kind of assault, it is just vile.
The layers of protection are so important. Someone noticed a man going into the women's toilets and that rung a warning bell - as it should. We keep getting told to ignore the bell.
I don't envy your position, it must be so difficult to provide the best support possible to your trans child whilst seeing the bigger picture that includes your daughter's rights.
I hope she's ok.

2BthatUnnoticed · 02/07/2019 22:54

I think the answer is (1) female toilets and (2) gender neutral toilets. Given that every establishment currently has two sets of toilets (male and female), this would be a practical and cost-free solution.

I know men would prefer to keep their sex-segregated space. But from a safeguarding perspective, this approach is lower risk, and this has to be central.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 02/07/2019 22:14

I hope your daughter is ok. Sadly both of your kids will face unwanted male attention.

That’s who we are up against. Male intolerance, homophobia and sexism. The attitude that they can do as they feel because, men innit?

Your kids will face different types of intolerance but I’d guess from the same sector.

Let they eyes be open and keep them safe.

HigaDequasLuoff · 02/07/2019 22:02

Thank you for sharing. As others also agree - no ill will towards trans people in general or your trans child at all. Our concerns are solely about the safety, dignity and full rights for women and girls.

There are so many manifestations of sexism in the world. One is the sense of entitlement that led thar predator to follow your daughter and grope her, thinking of her as a thing existing for his pleasure rather than a real, valid human being.

Another kind of sexism - perhaps more gentle and more insidious and beguiling, is that which has convinced your other child (along with many others) that "girl" and "woman" are descriptions of characteristics which are in reality universal to men and women alike, but are suppressed as "unmanly" by toxic masculinity. I'm not calling your child or yourself sexists, but it's impossible not to absorb and be affected by it having been bathed in endemic cultural sexism from birth. It takes effort to unlearn that.

I am glad that it was no worse for your daughter but it will still have been so traumatic. A much "lesser" assault as a young teen deeply affected me for many years.

I wish all your family only the best, and that you all find the peace you each need.

CrazyToast · 02/07/2019 19:42

I'm so sorry to hear what happened and hope your daughter is ok. However this post has also given me hope. We need more people like you, who have first hand knowledge of what your kids are going through, to speak up about protecting everyone. Much respect.

justilou1 · 02/07/2019 00:48

Bloody police!!! This happened to my (little) 12 year old son while I was waiting outside the loos. If my radar didn’t jiggle and I didn’t go in, I hate to think what would have eventuated. The police were just as insensitive (and useless) about it. (Basically implying that I was a perve for hanging around then going into the men’s loo.) The guy got away, of course!!! (Despite lots of people outside taking his photo for me!!!!)

Datun · 02/07/2019 00:28

There is no perfect solution, there just isn't.

Having three options is the least unfavourable outcome though, I agree OP.

We can't be told that challenging males in female only spaces is wrong.

Three options - all the way. Sorts the wheat from the chaff.

crsacre · 02/07/2019 00:24

Stonewall's instructions to universities on toilets and changing rooms:

Students should be able to access facilities that align with their gender or that they feel most comfortable using. This should be stated in publicly available policies.
Staff and students should be reminded to never challenge a student’s choice of facilities.

Original poster
JudgeFlounceRedRugBlah · 02/07/2019 00:12

Exactly that, could not have put it better myself;

EVERYONE MATTERS

It shouldn't be this hard.

OP posts:
2BthatUnnoticed · 02/07/2019 00:02

Support to your and your daughter OP Flowers And to your trans child too.

We need a world where women and girls still have sex-based rights as needed, and trans & NB have gender-based rights as needed.

Everyone matters.

Original poster
JudgeFlounceRedRugBlah · 01/07/2019 23:54

My transgender child is really uncomfortable with toilets. They don't want to make anyone uncomfortable or increase their own risk either. At the moment they use gender neutral toilets where they are available. School and college have designated a %age of the disabled toilets as gender neutral and disabled enabled. Not a perfect solution of course for many reasons. Where these are not available they will avoid the toilets if at all possible. In an emergency once they had a friend "cover them" by checking a gender specific toilet was empty and then standing guard whilst they'd peed and ran.

I don't want that life for them either tbh but there's no easy solution presenting itself at the moment, mostly (imho) because of this refusal to accept there needs to be a third solution beyond "move over ladies we're coming in"

OP posts:
Fairenuff · 01/07/2019 23:48

much as I support them, I am not prepared to sell my daughters out for it

This ^^ is the point. This is what women have been trying to voice. This is what needs discussing and addressing. Where is the safeguarding?

This cannot be said enough.

zen1 · 01/07/2019 23:45

Disgusting that the police are willing to brush off the actions of a sexual predator. What a horrible and scary thing for your DD to have to go through. I strongly believe that a male-born person should not have access to women’s spaces.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 01/07/2019 23:40

police called and dealing with it (after a difficult conversation along the lines of "well... we probably won't be able to make anything stick, are you sure you want us to talk to him...

All the people who argue that post event reporting is a) the same as safeguarding and b) an effective way to resolve an attack, should read this thread. We can't "just report it", and even if we could, it still happened. I'm so sorry this happened to your daughter. And so scared it'll happen to mine. It's all so fucked up.

ZebrasAreBras · 01/07/2019 23:29

I'm so sorry you daughter had to go through that OP, and thank god for the people there being on the ball and intervening.

Your post pinpoints exactly why women's spaces should be strictly women and girls only. I have a daughter too, and this terrifies me. The one thing I could rely on growing up was that that the women's toilets were a safe space (almost guaranteed).

Thanks for your daughter.

riverday · 01/07/2019 23:19

Slightly curious what your trans kid does about toilets bit maybe not the time to ask.

Mine uses the disabled. She has always used the disabled because she is autistic and had issues around toileting for years. I have no idea what the solution would have been otherwise. School have a specific single toilet, I don't know how it's labelled exactly but it is beside the disabled rather then being a disabled itself.

scotsheather · 01/07/2019 23:12

And the frightening thing is this is happening increasingly without self ID even being in place. What an appalling thing to happen and good of work protecting her. Bottom line however is his behaviour was grossly indecent, in a private space where girls are vulnerable regardless of gender/sex whathaveyou so don't let it lie.

Slightly curious what your trans kid does about toilets bit maybe not the time to ask.

Erythronium · 01/07/2019 23:07

Oh my goodness, your poor daughter. I hope she is OK.

You're right, this is a huge piece of protection being removed for women and girls if men and boys can just self-ID into female spaces.

Awful that the police reacted like that, when there was even another witness. Terrible.

AnneElliott · 01/07/2019 23:00

Definitely complain about that police response. Not on.

OhHolyJesus · 01/07/2019 22:58

So sorry this happened, your poor girl, was there CCTV - bloody police a young girl was attacked! Dear lord the world we live in.

Just sending support to you and your family OP on all fronts.

Original poster
JudgeFlounceRedRugBlah · 01/07/2019 22:56

@newtlover, not work experience but school are aware. It's just an hour or so after school occasionally for pocket money really.

OP posts:
Original poster
JudgeFlounceRedRugBlah · 01/07/2019 22:54

@riverday Flowers it's a difficult road to parent isn't it? I hope you are doing ok, its not like there's a wealth of places where cautious parents of transgender children can get support.

I agree, it's about the loss of another of those layers of protection that are, sadly, still needed for women and girls. I so wish we'd arrived at a point in time where predatory men didn't exist so that it would be easy to give transgender people access without fear - but we haven't, in fact some days we seem to be getting further and further away from that. Oddly it shocked me to hear my daughter repeat a variation of the words so many of us (and our own mothers/aunts/friends) have heard. It's like nothing has changed at all.

OP posts:
ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 01/07/2019 22:41

I hope your daughter feels safe now.

Regardless of the needs and wants of transpeople, women and girls need sex segregation for their own safety and dignity.

Mermoose · 01/07/2019 22:41

It's terrible that happened JudgeFlounce. You sound like a good mother. I hope it's figured out how to make sure trans people have the protections they need while women retain theirs.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 01/07/2019 22:40

judge

Thanks for both of you