My daughter was assaulted tonight - why I'm against self ID

Yes, that is such good point. The oft repeated, even on the Mhairi Black thread in the last day, "men wouldn't demean themselves and call themselves women unless they absolutely had to" is pure unadulterated misogyny and I can't believe I have only just noticed.

OP, for your daughter. I hear your mother's heart here, and I have been in a similar situation with my child. Tbh, from what you've said, I think you probably know it's not possible to be the good guy in every instance. My best wishes to you.

My mum was always the nicest person ever. Wouldnt want to hurt a fly.

That was always her weakness too. Trying to be the good guy to everyone. And ending up as something of a doormat in the process whilst inadvertently hurting me and my interests.

She defended the most appalling behavior in the name of being nice. There was always a massive underlying current of trying to make up for her own guilt and sense that she'd failed my brother because he wasn't a 'proper man'.

My parents had spent years trying to get my brother to be 'more male' by finding the 'right sport' for him for example.

On the surface my mum was always very pro women, but the flip of that was still that she still didn't really think men and women were equal either because men still should be gender conforming whereas it was OK for women not to be.

And that does reflect a lot about the invisible transman mentality too.

Great post red. You said something earlier about not being out to fix it, and sometimes not being able to be the good guy.

And I think that's what tears people's hearts apart. That's what is so difficult.

However, your post has that ring of veracity, that is undeniable.

I truly believe that the sexism running through the ideology, from start to finish, is the heart of the problem.

An effeminate man is somehow of lesser social status than a trans woman. An effeminate man is viewed as weak whereas a transwomen is viewed as stunning and brave.

This demonstrates what I mean. A man is considered bloody brave, to don the accoutrements of a woman. He's only doing it because he has to. It's so difficult, but he will do it. Brave, brave man. Let's then give him comfort and cookies by telling him it works and that he is stunning. He is fitting right into the top 'o' the trees gender box of a female, yes he is. Let's complement his looks.

Whereas the man who just naturally demonstrates femininity, or effeminacy, is what? Certainly not stunning, or brave. A bit of a joke, maybe. Someone to send up, or who sends themself up.

How many times have we heard, in defence of a documented predatory transwoman, 'do you seriously think a man would present as a woman, if he didn't absolutely have to'?

Men, particularly, think someone would have to be unhinged to do such a lowly, embarrassing thing.

And then, of course, you have the whole swathe of men who take it a step further and fetishise this desperately low status of women. And get told they are stunning and brave whilst doing it!

It's a mindfuck of catastrophic proportions.

And of absolutely no surprise whatsoever, to women, that it's largely women who are suffering because of it.

JudgeFlounceRedRugBlah

for you, your daughter and your family. I genuinely hope you can navigate these choppy waters to provide the best possible outcome for everybody.

The toilet issue is really a massive red herring to me for this reason.

Why are schools going for toilets not comfort in your body?

I don't disagree with any of that.

And I'd add that there seems to be a narrative where to be a trans girl is preferable to being a gay boy. So a young boy who thinks he might be gay (aged 11/12) has recently announced to his circle of (female) friends he is trans. He hasn't spoken to his parents about either possibility. So he has translated "not a 'typical' boy" and/or "attracted to boys" into "must be a girl". And this is in Ireland where he is unlikely to have been given any "education" about being trans while in primary school (but he will in secondary).

Sorry accidentally posted before I meant to.

A transkid gets more attention, support and attention than an effeminate boy or tom boy ever would.

And therein lies the rub for me.

Identity is something you project to the world, but you can never escape from yourself. When you try to, I think it does do psychological harm because deep down you always 'know' and people lash out whenever they are reminded of that. That's a lack of self acceptance not society rejecting you. You have to be at peace with yourself rather than expecting the world to 'owe you' your identity by being nice.

I don't know. There is no easy answer to the situation.

I don't believe the whole trans train helps anyone concerned reality. It's a trojan horse to hide behind in terms of other problems. It's a way of avoiding dealing with underlying issues. The co-mordibity is staggering.

There is definitely something of a pattern that is yet to be confronted and addressed by society, and if anything we are doing more to suppress that due to ideology.

The honest conversation that has to be had is simply that you can't change sex and in this sense gender identity is a misnomer. It's an attempt to replace sex with gender and us purely an ideology rather than an innate sexuality.

You can't say you are against self ID in one breathe and in the next say you have a transchild. Self ID is living as the other gender identity in the absence of a GRA...

Language matters hugely.

The automatic go to now is that someone is trans if they are gender non-conforming.

Short hair for girls = trans
Long hair for boys = trans

There is no longer space in our culture for tom boys (see attempts to trans fictional to boys) and there has never been toleration for effeminate boys.

Once you start saying trans you are effectively setting up a long term narrative and set of expectations for a child.

That's the problem. We have programmes in schools which promote the idea of trans or non binary but there isnt equal prominence being given to simply being a tom boy or an effeminate boy.

I do think so much about this comes down to power rather than identity.

An effeminate man is somehow of lesser social status than a trans woman. An effeminate man is viewed as weak whereas a transwomen is viewed as stunning and brave.

Equally a tomboy is viewed as ugly whereas a transman is simply largely invisible.

It's all about a pecking order.

The transkid gets attention and support in a

@RedToothBrush
Given your experience what do you think is the optimum way of dealing with a situation where someone says they are trans? I've listened to PiqueResistance talk about the need to deal with "all the other issues" through counselling etc (I think they specifically mention mental health issues, any confusion/negativity about sexual orientation, family issues and maybe there was more) and they're quite strong about the idea of learning to live with dysphoria. What happens if that isn't enough? Or do you think it would be in most/all cases?

When sex can't be changed and gender is damaging what is the appropriate response? (I don't know so this is genuine interest and not goading which I hope comes across).

Sex can’t be changed.

Anyhoo - yes the sisters will be going through shit too and I hope family supports them too.

As the sister of a gay woman (well she was a child once!) I was bullied at school as well (as her), and lesbians certainly weren’t then, and are even less so now, treated with kid gloves and elevated to a state where they are ‘untouchable’ as he trans kids/adults are today.

But my own theory on this is that it is because they are women, and modern trends are being driven by men. I could be wrong but I don’t think so.

Merename, I pondered whether to post on this thread but decided to because I do think the OP needs to be challenged a little over their position and the cognitive dissonance.

The OP clearly wants to be 'in the right' and do the best thing, but unfortunately I just happen to think this is something where you can't be the 'good guy' all the time. And I think being confronted with that reality is essential.

Their child is obviously extremely vulnerable and she is in a difficult position but at the same time, language and phrasing us important. I am acutely aware that children can only self ID.

The thing is the ideology do not allow you to dip in and out and pick and choose which bits you like and which you don't.

That's the trouble. It's precisely why it destroys so many family. The failure to see and understand this is the heart of the problem too. Unless you admit how you are compromising one child because of the flaws it contains you are at risk of repeating them.

Sex can be changed. We are what we are. Gender identity seeks to pretend that we can change sex but ultimately its a pretense. Keeping up the pretense that gender identity is compatible with the vulnerabilities that female bodies have in our society is always going to mean you are unwittingly being sexist.

I wish it were not true. I wish you could change sex. But you can't and that's where reality will always ultimately make itself known.

It causes so much harm to be in denial about it.

Sorry, RedToothBrush, just reflecting after I wrote that it’s not helpful to criticise your tone without acknowledging you’ve had difficult experiences that have led to that, and are entitled to your opinion. But I hope you understand the point I’m making, without meaning to be personal, is that the anger coming across in posts like yours makes it difficult for me to want to engage in discussion as I expect to be shouted down, and not allowed my own opinion.

Michelle it defines who controls power within a family, if one decides to change their identity.

Power dynamics are hugely important in this.

Everyone else dances around that central person, constantly trying not to upset them whilst suppressing their own feelings.

I'm afraid I'm rather short on sympathy for parents who facilitate this, accusing others who don't agree as being 'prejudiced' or 'bigoted', whilst failing to understand the effects long term and short term on other children.

It's always dressed up as being nice or being supportive but it doesn't acknowledge that there might be a problem with facilitating the dominance of one child over another.

Yes that child has problems, but you have to address those issues not just say they are trans rather than a feminine boy which is absolutely fine.

I have issues with the thread in the sense that it's against self ID whilst completely for self ID at the same time, without realising.

The cognitive dissonance is what gets me.

This is why I am against self ID, because it endangers women, girls and genuine trans people (i.e. those suffering real dysphoria, as opposed to AGP, sleazy predators and fetishists jumping on the bandwagon). Your poor daughter, I hope she will be okay.

I am very sorry to hear of what has happened to your daughter, and the struggles as a family supporting your transgender child. It sounds like you are a sensitive mum and your support will definitely help all your kids both cope now and with future challenges.

I wanted to thank you for posting. The thread came up on ‘active’ and I generally avoid the feminist board as I find the aggressiveness in many of the posts very off putting. Through your experience you have highlighted the challenges, and despite naming that you are (of course) angry about what has happened, your time is not aggressive and confrontational (like RedToothBrush). Voices like yours are what draw people into a debate, rather than fighting and defensiveness, and help me understand the point that is being made about there being no clear solution that suits everyone.

I hope I don’t offend by asking, was the person who assaulted your daughter presenting as trans? Or was it a male who followed her to assault her? As this has long happened and sadly will continue, but I understand your point, that the huge risk lies in a message that people cannot even question, I hadn’t thought about that before.

I can't imagine how hard that must have been Red

When one child in a family's identity is redefined it does by extension set about redefining the identities and realities of the other siblings in the family too, whether they're willing or not.

I am hyper-vigilant about predatory men and I will ALWAYS call out men trying to access women's spaces. I hope that bastard gets what he deserves. Don't take any shit from the police. Hugs to your daughter.

When you allow males to define 'woman or girl' by gender you remove the power of females to define 'woman or girl' by sex.

This removes sex based rights and identity by the back door.

This removes power from women and girls to define themselves. Their identity comes second to the identity of males.

For example they can not describe themselves as having a brother and sister. Their boundaries in a relationship are lowered and their capacity to assert their own identity eroded.

Redtoothbrush don't presume to know what I have or have not told my children or how I have supported or otherwise each of them. You may be many things but what you are not is an expert on me and my family.

I've been the daughter.

Either you are gender critical or you support sexist gender stereotypes to the detriment of all concerned.

I fought for a long time over the cognitive dissonance of trying to be both 'an ally' and being against sexism. Ultimately you can't be.

In not standing up to the gender stereotyping that is the essence of trans genderism you are giving a certain message to your daughters whether you realise it or not.

This ideology is so toxic it is impossible to 'sit on fence' over what 'gender' actually means.

I would like to know if gender dysphoria is not a medical condition, why do transgender people want/need/expect medical treatment? But you don't have to answer if you don't want to as that's not what this thread is about.

If you'd be interested to know how I have navigated those, very difficult, conversations and how my children have navigated the changes that are going on you are more than welcome to ask.
I'd be interested to know this (whatever you feel comfortable sharing). I feel genuine sympathy for anyone with dysphoria and I wish it didn't seem to be that this is a zero sum game.

Your poor daughter - I hope she’s ok

And I hope your other child comes through their journey able to be comfortable in their body and with themself

My transgender child is going through hell in so many ways, they are battling on a frontier - I can see that - but, much as I support them, I am not prepared to sell my daughters out for it.

I'm afraid the moment you tell your daughters they have to refer to their brother as their sister and you think that being a woman is about being feminine, you've sold your daughters out.

You have already picked your son over your daughters.

So sorry to your daughter it’s scary when that happens and worse when you’re young. I hope she is ok. You sound like a very sensible supportive but fair mother. I also hope your transgender child is ok and that they have the support they need for their difficult situation. I genuinely want the lives of transgender people to be as fulfilling and happy as possible. I just do not want to have anyone’s else’s beliefs forced on me or used to take away my own rights to privacy and dignity.

So sorry what happened to your daughter but please can all abled bodied people of whatever gender/sex stay out of disabled toilets, when you have certain disabilities which may not be apparent you need to get in there fast...