Feminism. The Elephant in the Room.

I understand that there is a pink-collar penalty, and that female-dominated professions are historically not well paid.

But some of the gender pay gap debate assumes that men and women are getting paid differently for doing the exact same work ... in reality a lot of the difference comes from differing industries, preference for part-time work, and extended maternity leave (quite long in the UK)

Who is to blame when a woman headed for uni chooses sociology or English instead of STEM? Or she decides to go part-time because of childcare?

For example, it annoys me how many times on MN we hear people say they’ve gone into part-time work or became a SAHM because childcare takes their whole salary. For one, that’s only a temporary state of affairs until they go to school. The impact on their career is huge, and you’d hardly ever see men making that decision! And why is this calculated on the wife’s salary? If it was the husband they’d usually be encouraged to look for a better paying job or suck it up until they get a promotion or kids reach school age.

End rant. But sometimes our own choices do hobble us and I think it’s fair to point out.

A lot of working class women seem to feel they have more common cause with working class men than with their middle class sisters

I’m unsurprised that women who are working for a pittance, coming home to do 90% of the housework and child rearing cannot be arsed with a middle class women coming in and telling her that they are sisters, especially as we are probably earning minimum wage to clean her house. If you want men to stop exploiting the labour of women, you need to practice what you preach.
So yeah, that’s my elephant.

Jane I care.

A lot of working class women seem to feel they have more common cause with working class men than with their middle class sisters

i can see this. It's easier to be a rich woman than it is to be a poor man.

That because of all the issues still unresolved about equalising domestic work and child rearing between women and men (as mentioned up thread), this means that it will fall to women to do many of the more time-consuming, more complex and cumbersome ways of doing things domestically that will be needed to be done to try to help to save us collectively from climate change and environmental destruction.

@MangoFeverDream

watch this please

That not all women actually want equality and liberation, and that from some perspectives it could be argued having it doesn’t make your life better.

I guess I'd also have to add - generally, feminism's fear of being accused of Islamophobia, and refusal to speak out consistently for ex-Muslim women, and women living under oppressive Islamic states.

Feminism being way more likely to speak out for a Western woman's right to cover than focus on the active harms hundreds of thousands of women undergo globablly every day under coerced religion/culture, including covering.

That the wage gap is mostly due to personal choices wrt work-life balance

Why do women make those choices? They aren't made in a context free bubble.

My elephant is that half of what passes for - self identifies as?! - feminism is actually dick pandering.

A lot of working class women seem to feel they have more common cause with working class men than with their middle class sisters.

I feel like that sometimes (am working class) but not others. Depends what the issue is.

Similarly, I've read many black women say "if you ask me which form of discrimination has the bigger impact on my life, sex discrimination or racial discrimination, I'd say race every time. And this is something white feminists just don't seem to get." (Disclaimer - I am white, and doing my best to summarise what I've seen women from ethnic minorities here and elsewhere say - apologies if anyone feels I'm misrepresenting this position).

A lot of working class women seem to feel they have more common cause with working class men than with their middle class sisters.

See exploitation more generally of the working classes by others.

Feminism as practiced in, say, the academy, does have a big, bad, class blindspot, but that doesn't mean it's got problems greater than any other social movement.

But it isn't discussed much, except by socialist feminists.

A lot of working class women seem to feel they have more common cause with working class men than with their middle class sisters.

That the wage gap is mostly due to personal choices wrt work-life balance

How so?

That there may be some sex-linked behaviours (mostly around reproduction).

That provision of child care doesn't solve the 'problem' of mothers, and that many feminisms do not value the maternal.

Exploitation of working class women/women of color by other women.

That's about all, I reckon, from my perspective.

I accept that men can behave more competive/aggressive/dangerously becuase of testosterone. That doesn’t make all men aggressive risk takers. Why can’t we even try and think to what extent female hormones affect our behaviour without being accused of being pink and blue brain supporters? biologically/ evolutionary wise it makes some sense so has a reasonable probability of being true. If it is proven true and feminist are seen to deny it then where doesn’t that leave feminism. Equal does not mean the same. Understanding and respecting our biological needs must cover all our biological needs, not just san bins and car safety belts.

The elephant in the room - something that feminists ought to address but don’t? I don’t think I have one. I mean it’s a bit weird that liberal men think they are currently at the forefront of it (and I do mean men that’s not a cute way of referring to trans women). Why we still have to push for equality? I’m in my 40s, I thought a lot of these battles were won in my twenties. Meh. I couldn’t really say I see an elephant....

That lots of women don't understand feminism till it is too late.

we are naturally programmed to want to do the hoovering and should just accept it’ again. I am so tired of this shit.

Given the state of my house at present I can safely assure you, #notallwomen

Just from conversations with other women my (not young) age, how little women like, respect or trust men. They will love individual men, but see even in them the seeds of wilder misogyny. Maybe we’re just tired after years and years of it.

Mango (leaving to one side the fact that I actually fought and won an equal pay claim of hte old-fashioned equal pay for equal work kind - so I'm always a bit dubious of the current tendency to say "oh it's just that women make conscious choices) why is it women that make these choices?

A couple decides they want to have children... why is it that the woman's career is the one that ends up being balanced against finding time/flexibility for the children? Why that way round? I don't think it's a "nature" thing.

(In my case I wasn't a "natural" at child-rearing, and much of what I learned in the early days of my DS's life, I picked up from my DF, who is brilliant with babies and incredibly patient. Nor did I get a warm fuzzy glow from the crap bits... I can honestly say that for about the first 3 or 4 months, the only bit of the day I could rely on enjoying was bath time - 15 minutes out of 24 hours! So if I could have had a partner who'd have said "you know what, I want to share parental leave with me", I'd have embraced him, thrust DS into his willing arms, headed out the door to work, and come back when DS was beginning to do interesting stuff, at about 9 months plus. I had a bit of a blank patch ages 5 to 7 or 8 - no longer cute toddler doing something new and fascinating every day, but not yet old enough to have a rational conversation with - of course I "faked it till I made it", but again, that bit did not come naturally.)

MangoFeverDream

That the wage gap is mostly due to personal choices wrt work-life balance

Saw a really interesting thing on twitter today re that.

Is this anything to do with that wonderful article in The Times that castigates mothers for choosing to do absolutely everything around the house? Of course we secretly choose to grind ourselves down when the men actually want to do all the housework, run around after the kids etc .

I suppose lots of feminists talk the talk but don't walk the walk.