Feminism. The Elephant in the Room.

I have sons but worry I've made esp DS1 'soft' as he is constantly fretting about structural inequality and can't abide what is known as laddish (ie sexist and aggressive) behaviour. I wouldn't have done any different as he will become an excellent man but it's bloody hard work.

Yesterday I went for a walk with my son, who is now coming to live with me, and my heart almost burst when he told me that he thinks that older women should be in charge of society because they have the wisdom, the experience, and the compassion to do things right. Also that female doctors are the best -- the ones he's had always take time and show genuine interest in the problem.

Oh, and other things I discovered about him: I always knew he puts the toilet seat down, but the other day he told me he sits to pee! And has done this since he was 15!!!! I was gobsmacked.

He also said he'd love to be a SAHM because it's the best job of all but he would always let the mother do it because she'd be better and is happy to be the breadwinner. Also, he cooks and cleans and does the laundry. And, being single now, is celibate until he finds the "right" woman.

It was disrespecting traditionally female roles because women did them I think we should respect them more, and for that reason.

This. I like a bit of matricentric feminism.

Vanessa Olorenshaw is good on this. Here's her book: www.amazon.co.uk/Liberating-Motherhood-Birthing-Purplestockings-Movement/dp/1910559199/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Also, women have historically tended to prefer "people" jobs over "things" jobs and this seems to be true even in the most sex equal Scandinavian societies. So the task of feminism should include ensuring that "people" professions are as highly valued by society as "things" professions.

The fact that men need to understand that they have to take an active role in changing structural inequality and that it will benefit them if they do. That even the best of men do things every day that reinforce the patriarchy.

Yes I totally hear that @lovelygreenjumper

I have sons but worry I've made esp DS1 'soft' as he is constantly fretting about structural inequality and can't abide what is known as laddish (ie sexist and aggressive) behaviour. I wouldn't have done any different as he will become an excellent man but it's bloody hard work.

There are examples of these choices from throughout my family and personal life and yes, things would just be 'easier' if we chose to ignore things but here's to being difficult. Even if that means making it difficult for ourselves. ✊🏼✊🏼

The fact that issues around motherhood have largely been ignored. The fact that for many women not being a feminist gives them an easier life than not being one. The fact that many women are actively anti feminist.

My 'elephant' is the fact that being a feminist can make your life harder and so as a feminist and a mother of a daughter I have an internal struggle between bringing my DD up to recognise and speak out against stereotypes/misogyny and wanting her to be have friends/be happy/feel accepted.

For example- I firmly believe that being alert to misogyny and standing up to sexism will help her avoid being taken in by arsehole men but as a teen being the girl who questions the 'lads' and does not fawn over them will make her a target. Similarly if she is the only girl who 'chooses' not to wear impractical tight fitting/skimpy clothing she may be made fun of.

It was disrespecting traditionally female roles because women did them I think we should respect them more, and for that reason

Nodding away like crazy here

Yes @Lamaha but as a younger woman
I was definitely in the don't stay at home camp. It's only as I've got older and more experienced that I realise a lot of feminism's early goals, and my own thoughts, were actually a form of chauvinism. It was disrespecting traditionally female roles because women did them I think we should respect them more, and for that reason.

This links to the other post above That lots of women don't understand feminism till it is too late.

Which is why younger women tend to be liberal. I for one thought all the major battles were won when I was young and starry eyed.

The whole domestic / economic sphere argument for me is a bit of an elephant. The problem for me is not whether women or men are better / better suited to one or the other but that we respect economic work more because of the intersection of capitalism and patriarchy. There is nothing inherently unequal in a sex based division of labour, but there is huge inequality if society values one over the other

Thank you; yes, indeed! One of the reasons I could not call myself a feminist was because I felt the feminist values were simply an adoption of the stereotypical male goals: a top career, being the top dog, money, position, prestige. A total ego trip, which I could not get into at all. And at the same time, feminists would deride everything to do with caring for children, mock SAHMs, call us 50s housewives with rusty minds etc. Which was something I could not at all agree with.
It's as if feminism simply wanted what men had along with the values.
I believe that every person is of value and the work you do does not make you more or less worthwhile. Respect for the maid as much as the CEO! But society values economic power more than anything so that those who do the invaluable work of caring (ie women) are of less value. THAT, for me, is what needs to change.

I'm 3/4 of the way through Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez
https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/111/1113605/invisible-women/9781784741723.html

And I think most of the elephants are exposed in this book! And explained, beautifully. Read it

Similarly, I've read many black women say "if you ask me which form of discrimination has the bigger impact on my life, sex discrimination or racial discrimination, I'd say race every time. And this is something white feminists just don't seem to get."

Yes, this is true. As a girl and young woman I was convinced I was inferior to white people and it took a whole lot of internal work to get over that. For most of my youth I was far more impacted by racism than sexism; in fact, I wasn't at all interested in feminist issues until this transgender thing came up.

Yes, as a young woman I found it a nuisance that men harassed me for sex but once I developed a clear attitude on that I've not had a problem. And I always got the education and jobs I wanted. But race?

Do pregnancy and related hormones make women more interested in home and child ?

In my case, absolutely; though "child" much more than "home", if "home" means domestic work. I am not a natural domestic goddess! But I have very clear maternal instincts and I stand by them 100%. Once past girlhood I yearned for a child and once pregnant I was constantly turned inward, connecting with the growing foetus, speaking to it, feeling it, getting to know it. Something a man can't possibly do. And once my babies was born, yes, an automatic sense of being totally in love, an internal bond and need to care for them, kicked in. This was never apparent when I was a wild young thing not even dreaming of having kids (I had them aged 34 and 39).

I lost all interest in my job and having to go back to sit in an office or do the other career stuff -- I would have hated it. It would have been almost a physical pain, to leave my babies with others, even the dad, when they were very young.

I'm not very good at cooking, cleaning, laundry etc but given the choice between those tasks and working in an office, I'd choose them every time. They do allow for a certain mental freedom which a job doesn't. I'm glad that I lived in a country, at the time, which allowed me to be a SAHM.

Which didn't prevent some of my friends insinuating that my mind would grow rusty and I'd be bored stiff just looking after babies! I simply didn't get that sense at all and I don't understand it. Other people's babies might be boring, but I found mine fascinating every minute of every day!

I do realise this is not the PC feminist thing to say but it's my own truth.

Some of the above:

Yes working class women feel more affinity to working class men than middle class women. As class as with race. The elephant then being the bullshit misrepresentation and misunderstanding of intersectionality which bugs the shit out of me.

The whole domestic / economic sphere argument for me is a bit of an elephant. The problem for me is not whether women or men are better / better suited to one or the other but that we respect economic work more because of the intersection of capitalism and patriarchy. There is nothing inherently unequal in a sex based division of labour, but there is huge inequality if society values one over the other. In this case economic labour which for most of human history has been peripheral and is now seen as central. I could go on about this for ages @DJLippy and would be interested in a debate on it at your meeting if that's what this is about.

Another, perhaps more elephanty elephant, is weather feminism has really helped. This allies with an MRA argument which means I'm reticent to discuss it. But it is the argument that actually things are worse in general now. Obviously the MRAs blame nasty women who are trying to keep men down, rather than it being either unrelated or an unintended consequence, but most families need two incomes now. It was expected in the past that one income, even a low one, would support a family. Obviously this isn't the fault of feminism, it's rampant capitalism, which co-opts any progressive action.
It could be argued too that if women would just put up and shut up more about dickish behaviour from men that we wouldn't have to deal with being single parents and be scarred by our experiences. (We'd just expect to be raped and treated like shit.)

I am not - repeat not - advocating that any of these arguments should be used in any sort of anti feminist way and to use them against women (as they are used) is to display a woeful lack of critical thinking. However often people do have a woeful lack of critical thinking and so look at surface solutions / cause and effects not at anything deeper.

Also let's just talk about Marxist feminism more.

I was a bit shocked when my mother said to me "very few women over forty like men"

OMG! That's the message I got as a kid from all the elder females in my large extended family. The completion being... that's why you need to be careful picking which one you marry.

Radical feminism: great at shifting the Overton window, but I think its elephant is possibly that while great at critiquing power, because it consciously eschews playing within the patriarchal power structures that dominate society, it kind of opts out of being able to effect any genuine change. (In that sense, I think for all its flaws, liberal feminism probably gets more accomplished).

I agree with Fermats point and I am trying to become as self aware as possible about this because the possibility of genuine change is the thing that sustains me when all of this feels overwhelmingly shit. Small victories count, big ones even better.

We need to form alliances on single campaigning points with people that we don’t like overall, people who have shit views in other areas, and people who argue their points in ways we don’t like. Often all three at the same time!

Public and political opinion is swayed by seeing a broad base of support from unlikely allies coming together- that is what makes effective campaigning or lobbying.

We need to speak to each other for support but to effect change, we need write and speak very regularly to Secretaries of State and MPs who can make legal change. Same with Chief Executives, university Vice Chancellors any other senior leader in organisations who have the power to make policy change. This while being at the grassroots individually or being informed by women who are at the grassroots, either of which can be hard to do.

We would probably be more effective not trying to effect change as campaigning amateurs alone but by seeking more professional lobbying and legal advice as other campaigning causes do.

We need the big thought leaders/influencers/popular people with massive social media followings to campaign on this and they won’t all be likeable, politically sound in everything or do it all correctly in our view. Many of them will need to be men, for example. It’s going to be a trade off of gains on this issue vs other issues. Requiring ideological purity in ourselves or allies is not going to get us anywhere.

So let’s look for common cause but also have well thought-through boundaries because allying with others creates obvious vulnerabilities as well as creating otherwise-unachievable strengths and benefits.

Oh and depressingly while we are all looking at this issues, other important issues will be growing unchecked that need to be tackled.

So we all have to prioritise and make choices about which bits we personally focus on.

MRAs and TRAs will not accept even solid legal defeat without backlash and appeal through legal process so even on this one issue, we have generations of work ahead of us.

@Juells see I would absolutely say DH has the heightened safety concerns over me, he is laid back and I am highly strung generally, but he worries about things like untied shoe laces, high temperatures much more than I do, and as I say personality wise he is extremely laid back so it's not a personality thing. It's why I just don't believe it's quite as programmed as people think, but then I accept we may be unusual, perhaps he is over compensating for my more relaxed approach in this context? I have read that dads are important for instilling risk so I'm sure there is a biological element, but I believe social programming has a huge, if not larger, part to play than biological.

One point here is to accept variety, and try to avoid seeing someone else making different life choices to you as implicit criticism of yours

Many women feel strongly that they want to be with their children as much as possible when they’re young. Many women don’t feel that compulsion

Surely the point of feminism should be to support both, without judgment or consigning them to poverty in old age, or financial reliance on their partners to the point that they can’t leave an abusive relationship

But what does that mean for those of us who don't have that supposedly natural urge? Those that don't want kids or those like me that do and love them but don't enjoy "home making"

I didn't have any of the natural urge, and certainly had no interest in home making (wish I did). My ex was much better with the children than I was, knew how to play with them and amuse them, but didn't have the hyper-vigilance that I had for keeping them safe - when he had them on his own they were forever getting into scrapes, being dropped on their heads, falling in ponds or in the deep end of swimming pools I was lucky that they were past the toddler stage by the time we broke up, or I'd never have allowed him to have them on his own, they wouldn't have survived

I was (am) a dreadful housekeeper, but I could keep them safe and healthy.

I would never have a male childminder (if I was in the position of needing a childminder) and I wouldn't give a shiny shit how unfair that was.

@Sunkisses immediately after being born yes, but what does a mother do that a father can't beyond breastfeeding? I don't think that's programmed but societal expectations (or lack of). There is not a single thing I can think of that I do for our kids that DH doesn't do, and not after being told. His instincts, reactions and emotions are very much on par with my own in this context. Does that make us statistical oddities, or demonstrate when raised well we don't have to sit set roles?

But what does that mean for those of us who don't have that supposedly natural urge? Those that don't want kids or those like me that do and love them but don't enjoy "home making" "baby rearing" I would say DH's and mine maternal/paternal feelings reactions are the same. Does that mean something is wrong with me, or perhaps society has programmed us to feel a set way?

That women are usually better at childcare than men. I'm too scared to say that to all the feminists I know, as I know I'll get howled down. But I also know it to be true, and think it is also fairly obvious. We've gestated the DCs, given birth to them, fed them from our own bodies. I don't think it is any surprise that women are more suited to childcare.

^^ this

I was a bit shocked when my mother said to me "very few women over forty like men", but it's true. Even if you haven't had bad experiences yourself, you'll have seen friends being hammered down and dominated.

I have never felt that (most) men and women want the same things from life. Always had a sneaking suspicion that men feel a bit surplus to requirements, and do all sorts of things just to feel like they have a purpose.

I think that men and women have different bodies... it is women who get pregnant and breast feed but also different differences that we see quoted in discussions about sport and this will effect whether we can function/compete in a men designed world. There is a hell of a lot more work to do.

That women are usually better at childcare than men. I'm too scared to say that to all the feminists I know, as I know I'll get howled down. But I also know it to be true, and think it is also fairly obvious. We've gestated the DCs, given birth to them, fed them from our own bodies. I don't think it is any surprise that women are more suited to childcare. Doesn't mean blokes should do nothing, and never help out, and don't bond with their own DCs too. It's a conundrum, but I think it is a biological fact that mothers are usually best suited for the enormous and important role of looking after DC, and outsourcing childcare I think causes enormous harms. And we also know where ignoring biological facts has got us... To me, this is the enormous elephant in the room with feminism

The mother-daughter problem, as exemplified by the Third Wave’s rejection of the Second Wave.

But sometimes our own choices do hobble us and I think it’s fair to point out.

But in the absence of societal sex-based expectations would we make the same choices?

Would women gravitate towards lower paid professions? Would they give up a career trajectory in favour of more flexible, child-friendly jobs? Would they sacrifice work to take on the vast majority of child/housework?

My bet is no. Not to the same extent anyway.

But social conditioning tells us we should.