"Would you date a trans person?" Mostly, no. So you're basically killing them.

This is a 70s/80s misconception that absolutely no one in Japan mentions or talks about these days

I was told I smelled like sugar and once heard from another Japanese friend that Koreans smell like kimchi 🤷‍♀️

although not sure that actually translates from male to female, as its not as intimidating possibly, still awkward and ignoring the actual responses?

Side note: yes, men actually do very much feel intimidated by sexually predatory women. Less so, perhaps, than a woman clearly physically weaker than the bloke not accepting no for an answer. And obviously without a few millenia of societal baggage.

This is not to say "what about the poor menz" at all - but they do feel insecure, intimidated and helpless when exposed to predatory behaviour, too.

I've actually "rescued" a male colleague out of the men's at a club before on account of him having no idea how to react to repeatedly having his bum pinched by the same, very persistent drunk woman.

Maura is the one in loveisland talking a lot about sex.

I dont consider it good. She is highly objectifying of men, she talks of them as body parts, she is actively predatory (although not sure that actually translates from male to female, as its not as intimidating possibly, still awkward and ignoring the actual responses?).

If a man was behaving in this way, it would be all those things.

Sorry, avoiding sinful desires, obvs. No sinful desiring in the nunnery thank you. Step away from Mr Elba.

Its a kind of 21st century get thee to a nunnery, isn't it? Thou shalt abandon sinful focus upon lust and sexual pleasure and instead embrace a life of service, self sacrifice and poverty of experience and selfish desire while focused upon a greater (nameless and intangible and not for you in this life) reward.

But only some people have to be nuns. Mostly the boring ones with vaginas. Others get to have their wishes and feelings and desires and preferences recognised and supported and facilitated, and are nurtured to become their authentic selves and live their best lives and other psycho babble wankery.

Another question: does everyone get to choose whether they're a nun servicer or one of the served? Is that a 'lifestyle choice' for everyone equally? What separates the servant from the served, exactly? Because I'm pretty sure the servant name is 'c*s' and they have vaginas.

So when someone tells me I should train myself to overcome my body's exclusive reactions to women - what's in that for me? Nothing. Except being a Good Girl. To a patriarchal group. Who see me and my body as there only to provide men with what they need and require me to put them first in all things. And sex is framed as something that men get to enjoy and where men get to have their choices and feelings and needs and desires respected and centred - but women don't.

This, fucking THIS!

It all goes back to this idea that women only ever have sex to please men doesn't it?

I know it's a different topic, but in Love Island at the moment there is a young woman in there who is very open about sex and talks about enjoying sex, and how the some of the men in there make her feel. Rather than just trying to be sexy for them. The men in the house, and wider society watching it actually, don't know what to make of her, because we are not that used to seeing women who want to be sexy for themselves and think about themselves in a sexual context outside of how they are going to please the man they are with.

That is a great question you have asked there: what's in that for me?

We notice smells unlike our own; that’s why some Japanese think Europeans smell of dairy products

This is a 70s/80s misconception that absolutely no one in Japan mentions or talks about these days, because no one actually thinks it.

Anyway. Men and women do, to me, smell different. I'm asexual, so to me man or woman scent just doesn't attract me at all - but I do find "male scent" far less desirable, but more noticeable, than female smell.

But anyway. Penis = yuck for some. No amount of forcing will ever change that.

I just really don't see how being heterosexual and dating a trans person intersect

I'm a heterosexual woman, who likes penises (in context) and wanted to have children. there is nothing about dating a biological female that would work for me

dating a male who had taken oestrogen, thereby in all likelihood landing thenselves with erectile dysfunction - doesn't work for me

I would also know that the individual was male, which if they're trying to convince themselves that they're a lesbian, wouldn't work for them. And I sure as hell wouldn't be pretending that I was a lesbian

it's just a disaster. and as I've said before, it;s really important that people understand this before they start taking powerful hormones or undergoing radical surgery

I've definitely noticed man smell, but not women. Maybe because I am attracted to men it stands out to me.

Maybe it’s just that being a woman means you are always surrounded by a ‘woman’ smell and don’t notice it. Men probably don’t notice other men’s smell.

We notice smells unlike our own; that’s why some Japanese think Europeans smell of dairy products.

Haven’t really looked into smells recently, other than the immunity and fear studies noted above.

According to Cordelia Fine, mother rats lick their male pups more than female ones because of the smell of the testosterone in their urine but humans would probably get locked up for that.

The thinking that people must change their sexual preferences goes so against everything we've learnt from the gay rights movement too. For years, rightly, gay people have been fighting the idea that sexuality is a choice, arguing that instead it is the way you are born and you can't change it. And now, suddenly, we are all transphobic for not being able to alter our sexuality to become attracted to those with the organs of the sex we are not attracted to? It makes no sense.

I'm curious to see if someone has done studies on the smells of trans people taking hormones. Does a woman taking T with loads of body hair smell more male?

I've definitely noticed man smell, but not women. Maybe because I am attracted to men it stands out to me.

So to follow this to the end of the line, should I train myself to accept my rapist? I currently exclude him from my dating pool.

So when someone tells me I should train myself to overcome my body's exclusive reactions to women - what's in that for me? Nothing. Except being a Good Girl. To a patriarchal group. Who see me and my body as there only to provide men with what they need and require me to put them first in all things. And sex is framed as something that men get to enjoy and where men get to have their choices and feelings and needs and desires respected and centred - but women don't.

Brilliantly put, Michelle.

It is certainly not unusual for women to find men astounded they will not date them or don't like them, Very important women can choose and we all have things that matter to us.

Eg I would not want a man who was left wing or wasn't very bright, all kinds of tihngs matter. I want someone with the same 100% physical and mental health as I have and I would not date a fat man or someone who does not speak in the way I do.

@Michelleoftheresistance

Yes it's either a total inability to fathom that women have an independent sexuality or (most likely) it's total rapiness.
In ideology it's similar to the suspension of belief that is required when you pay someone for sex. Which is why feminists don't really think you can call "paid for " sex sex at all

Prawn I believe talking about another thread is not allowed so I’ll leave that there. My mistake.

I think it's important to recognize that when a lesbian says no to a transwomen it's not because of her preferences which we all have, it's because of her sexuality I.e she is same sex attracted and that automatically excludes transwomen.

Precisely.

My body reacts only to other biological females. It doesn't react to men at all. The most I could ever learn to do is tolerate being sexually used by a man while supporting his pleasure.

Thing is, what about mine? I'm not a service drone. I wasn't created to make men happy. Throughout time, patriarchal groups have redefined what makes women socially acceptable in order to make women more useful and pleasant to men's interests. Patriarchy: a system in which men make the rules and women are allowed only to be participants on men's terms. This whole Queer Culture/ Trans Ideology stuff is as patriarchal as fuck.

So when someone tells me I should train myself to overcome my body's exclusive reactions to women - what's in that for me? Nothing. Except being a Good Girl. To a patriarchal group. Who see me and my body as there only to provide men with what they need and require me to put them first in all things. And sex is framed as something that men get to enjoy and where men get to have their choices and feelings and needs and desires respected and centred - but women don't.

This is batshit. The answer is a hearty fuck off, the 8th century is over and it isn't coming back mate. And anyone who treats women like this is going to be waiting for a shag, never mind a relationship, for a very, very long time.

What are you saying, Fieldofgreycorn? I've re-read your post several times and I haven't got a clue.

This is your first post on the thread but you speak as though it's a follow up. And no one's mentioned ASD. Are you on the wrong thread?

I wouldn’t date a trans man. I like my men to be actual men, with male genitalia. I accept that others have different tastes, so each to their own. but don’t tell me what I should be doing with my body.

Interesting how it’s ok here to ask about some protected characteristics and not others.

And to the person with asd son who called me a revolting specimen, I have a diagnosis of mild asd myself. So? What do you want a pat on the back and a cookie.

I wouldn't date someone with mental health problems or whom I didn't find attractive or who didn't earn what I did or who didn't have my educational level. We all have filters and the fact I wouldn't date someone without a penis or whatever is just part of a whole load of assortive mating things. Many trans people have mental health issues. I wouldn't date anyone with a mental health issue ergo they are for me best avoided.

Ricky Martin must have killed me in the 90’s. How dare he be gay and turn me into a corpse.

I just think it's really important for transwomen to understand that they are by default excluded from dating lesbians and it's not about the "dating preferences" of those lesbians, it's because they're same sex attracted