Is twitter having a purge today?

Agreed Erishkigal, what hope do feminists like Dr Em have against people like Helen Joyce, Glinner and the clique around some of the males who say they are women?

It must be so frustrating to have her expertise and concerns dismissed to just be nice and so others can try to benefit from 'I have a trans friend so'. I've been frustrated watching it.

To clarify, what I mean is that with so much high profile support some people who display problematic behaviour patterns become almost untouchable because they are perceived as part of the GC royalty, as it were.

I think the trouble with this person is that a lot of the prominent female people in the GC online movement, such as Helen Joyce and Jane Clare Jones follow and support. As well as Graham Linehan.

So it's hard for someone to call out the misogyny and narcissism, which is quite obvious to some women who are used to seeing these behaviour patterns.

They get called "extremist GC" or similar.

because I was noticing what seemed like manipulative behaviour.

Recognising & understanding potential patterns of controlling behaviour is important.
Some patterns of behaviour eg coercive control/ narcissitic control can be demonstrated by people of both sexes & of any gender identity.

See thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

useful article:
thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2017/11/50-shades-of-gaslighting-the-disturbing-signs-an-abuser-is-twisting-your-reality/

I used to follow Kinesis. I wanted to understand the trans side of the argument fully, mainly because I didn't understand it and it seemed to me kind of incredible that so many politicians & rights groups could be as wrong as I thought they were. I was glad of a trans person who would explain how they're experiencing dysphoria etc to people they knew are GC. I stopped interacting with K a while back because I was noticing what seemed like manipulative behaviour. I'd never seen anything quite as bad as that tweet on prostitution, but there was one thread where K claimed that women absolutely needed TW's support to fight Self ID, and the implication was that in exchange we needed to come to a compromise which ultimately meant ceding our rights. Often when K was challenged on something that either didn't make sense or was sexist, K would try to switch the focus of the conversation onto how bad K's had it. It's possible the person posting previously didn't notice this pattern. For me it changes how I'd view the sincerity of K's apology. But, having been there, I also understand why a lot of GC women want to remain in good terms with people like Kinesis. It's so unnerving to be told from all sides - official bodies, scientists, the government - that black is white and if you think otherwise you're a hateful bigot. To have someone tell you you're not a bigot, that you have reasonable concerns, and for that person to be trans, and therefore someone who has currency with the powers that be - that feels reassuring, when you really want reassurance.

No matter how much of a nasty person Kinesis is I think what was worse was watching other women fawn over him and attack Dr Em who had only been polite and stood up for women. It is not Dr Em's fault that she makes mincemeat of people like Kinesis.
As always happens people supported males over an advocate for women's rights. It must be such a kick in the teeth.

But if he thought he were mistaken he'd back off after numerous women told him he was wrong, not double down and start gaslighting women for his words.

I think boatyardblues meant that kenesis was mistaken thinking that having a baby gets you sufficient money and suitable housing. If only.

Exactly this.

Always helpful to think not of individual people or individual comments but of patterns of behaviour.

This is something Dr Em always does and why her voice is so indispensable. I truly hope she soon returns to the public Twitter sphere. I absolutely love her. I don't think any woman should ever be castigated for robustly asserting boundaries.

This absoutely ^^

For those unaware of DrEm's work, see her Medium site:
medium.com/@doctorEm/charities-institutional-climates-conducive-to-child-sexual-abuse-d0180c24526e

medium.com/@doctorEm/the-trojan-unicorn-queer-theory-and-paedophilia-part-i-a0cf30ef7bfa

Also that we should always be aware how easily false narratives/accusations can be created by some & then inadvertantly replicated & repeated by well-meaning people.

LangCleg great point. I think Dr Em stands by what she says and has set boundaries and stood by them. No wonder she has to take a break when she is chastised for it.

@LangCleg - what does your name mean? Asking for a friend.

A general comment, not about any particular incident or individual discussed here. Always helpful to think not of individual people or individual comments but of patterns of behaviour.

This is something Dr Em always does and why her voice is so indispensable. I truly hope she soon returns to the public Twitter sphere. I absolutely love her. I don't think any woman should ever be castigated for robustly asserting boundaries.

@StuntNun
Isn't it enough for someone to change their mind, say they were wrong and apologise?

Whenever I see someone saying something horrible, then apologising (but you know they still believe whatever it was they said ) I'm reminded of this.

No Katniss stop being disingenuous. You are reading things into my comments that we're not there and you said "Thanks to women like Stuntnun we can enjoy a feminist movement with Kin's and Debbie's voices instead of Em's." I don't know why you're trying to put words into my mouth and I wish you would stop. Follow Kinesis, don't follow Kinesis, ignore Kinesis, castigate Kinesis... I don't care. Just please leave me alone.

I'm just reading what your saying StuntNun. I brought up Hayton in a new paragraph, are we not allowed to bring anything up unless you have spoken about it?

Why are you so determined to force women to accept men they say they don't want to be around
Katniss you're reading things into my posts that just aren't there. I only posted initially to say that Kinesis had since apologised for the tweet screenshotted earlier on the thread, and to express my hope that Dr Em would come back to Twitter as she's such an important voice. I never said anyone had to forgive Kinesis and I never even mentioned Hayton.

@StuntNun kinesis says (and does) quite a few misogynistic things and apologises. The apologies aren't sincere - they don't change their misogyny

I've had it with the lot of them.

Stuntnun Dr Em never unblocked Kinesis, do you know her personally? Why would she care about him?

Why are you so determined to force women to accept men they say they don't want to be around, so what if he apologised for those remarks, what about all the others? Plus Kinesis isnt very nice and has nothing of value to add to the conversation.

From what I see online the main issue was Debbie Hayton and Hayton's lies and abuse of women's trust and boundaries. This behaviour all being defended by men, trans and some women.

Well I certainly saw some stuff Kinesis tweeted about prostitution, and unwanted pregnancy that sounded highly misogynistic and dangerously close to accusing women with unwanted pregnancies as having some sort of privilege.

The feminist movement can do quite well without that stuff, thank you.

I think boatyardblues meant that kenesis was mistaken thinking that having a baby gets you sufficient money and suitable housing. If only.

Sorry if I came across that way. I just hate the whole thing of someone saying something stupid on Twitter and they are forever a pariah. Like James Gunn losing his job because of bad jokes he made years ago. It's not enough to say you're wrong and apologise.

I'm not saying anyone should forgive Kinesis. I was merely pointing out that Kinesis tweeted some awful comments and then apologised - whereas it's being made out that Kinesis still holds those views on prostitution.

@StuntNun you're the one encouraging women to forgive kinesis.

No. These males have shown over and over that they cannot be trusted with giving them an inch.

I wonder why Dr Em unblocked Kinesis then? From what I saw a couple of weeks ago she didn't want to have anything to do with Kinesis again. Hopefully Dr Em is just taking a break and will be back.

WTF Katniss reading into things a little?

Agreed Boudicca. Thanks to women like Stuntnun we can enjoy a feminist movement with Kin's and Debbie's voices instead of Em's. I know which voice I prefer, and it has never been and is not male.

With Dr. Em leaving, is it any wonder? The woman works on predatory men and has to witness the fawning over Debbie Hayton by women. Hayton who self-id's into single sex spaces, compels the speech of their students, has subjected their wife to a change in their reality. I get the impression that Hayton has made themselves above criticism in certain circles and it mus be intolerable.