I’ve just been denied medical management of a failed abortion

In fact, if you've only just started passing clots and having cramps now, it may be that things are just getting started in terms of passing the pregnancy. If you wait you may not need surgery at all. Conservative management at this point is quite reasonable

OP this isn't necessarily a failed TOP though. It can take up to 2 weeks to complete, occasionally longer. You may just need to wait a bit longer for it to happen on its own

She is having to wait another day and night, not because of medical reasons but because two Drs have refused to treat her today.

Yes but she doesn't need treatment today. There is no medical reason she can't wait until tomorrow. This is an elective procedure

I know everyone has jumped on the whole conscientious objector band wagon, and that is a valid debate, but in the OP's case I can't actually see that the care she has had has been lacking (although the bedside manner may have been).

She is having to wait another day and night, not because of medical reasons but because two Drs have refused to treat her today.

Dont let righteous indignation get in the way of actual medical need here.

The OP is currently not an emergency. Appropriate clinical care is being offered tomorrow and there's no reason she can't wait. Medical TOP is very different to a normal MC and there can be a lot more bleeding, so don't let this worry you unnecessarily. This is normal. Medical TOP can also take a couple of weeks to work so the fact OP is being told she won't get surgery at her local hospital until this time period is up is also normal procedure.

I know everyone has jumped on the whole conscientious objector band wagon, and that is a valid debate, but in the OP's case I can't actually see that the care she has had has been lacking (although the bedside manner may have been).

Barnstaple hospital is failing. As I said up thread, the maternity dept has failed it’s recent inspection. It’s known to be a bad hospital. See if you can get to Exeter, it’s a far better hospital.

Yes religion is a protected characteristic but it's not a free pass

You're right, but there's the potential for it to be used as one and that will go right on unless it's stopped - preferably, for me, by removing all religions' protected status

A PP mentioned medics being asked about this at the application stage, but even if this was possible experience teaches that some will lie to avoid their chances being harmed and then go ahead and object anyway ... because they can, which brings me right back to the point above

So sad and outraged you are having to going through this Tinyteatime*.

The doctors and staff have behaved cruelly and unprofessionally. Its a disgrace. You deserve so much better.

and take care. Thinking of you and your family. Hope the organisations suggested will help to support you as time goes on. And there will always be women here who will listen and care

Im so sorry you’re going through this. I haven’t rtft yet, just the first and last couple of pages so forgive me if I’m saying something that’s already been said or repeated. I should also say I’m a GP and although I’ve done a fair bit of obs/gynae and do additional women’s healthcare now, it’s been a while since I worked in a hospital gynae ward.
As Quince says the decision for how urgently you need to go to theatre should be based on clinical need alone. If the decision is that you need urgent surgery within X amount of time because of your clinical condition then it is up to the hospital to ensure you get that treatment in the necessary time frame. If the doctors rota’d on object to doing the procedure because of their own beliefs (not always religious) then it is mandatory that this does not affect your care and it is up to them (or the hospital) to ensure that someone else is able to provide the care you need. It is not acceptable for them to object but no alternative provision is made and their position would be indefensible under current best practice guidelines should your condition deteriorate because of their failure to find appropriate cover.
If the decision is that clinically there are other cases which are more urgent than yours and that is the cause of the delay then this should have been explained clearly to you and the risks of infection should be minimised. I assume from what you’ve said that as you have ongoing bleeding this would be IV antibiotics (through a drip). I might be out of touch on that but it was certainly standard practice that women who were going through similar situations to yours were given at least antibiotic tablets as a standard when I last worked on a gynae ward.
In terms of what you can do, ask to speak to the Consultant on call if you haven’t seen them and if you have or they are objecting ask them why they aren’t providing alternative care for you.
for you and your family

I hope things are ok overnight

Tiny - sorry your going through this it’s awful.
You should have the right to be treated without judgement.
I am past the point of sympathy for doctors nurses or pharmacists that object based on anything to providing women’s health care. Which is what they are doing. They shouldn’t do the job if they won’t do all of it. What happens if this balance tips further and further. I can’t believe how many staff tiny has had to deal with that have been or seemed like objectors during this thread. There should be some visual indication on their bloody uniform so everyone can see they won’t look after women. Ans they should not be on a staff rota in one department at one time. Hope you are ok Tiny.

@Tinyteatime

Please make sure the Care Quality Commission are informed of your experience of this hospital. Especially mention you being told that nurses could refuse to care for you. This is categorically untrue, no matter the religious/political affiliations of specific nurses.

www.cqc.org.uk/contact-us

You learned from a doctor that their colleague objects to abortion?

That sounds like a terrible breach of confidentiality. Isn’t it down to the doctor themselves to tell you this when you ask for abortion?

And no informed doctor regardless of religion would object to removal of retained products if there was no viable pregnancy. They wouldn’t just say “hmm there might be a heartbeat so I refuse”, surely, especially if you were at risk?

It sounds like a really unprofessional department.

OP, so sorry you are having to go through this and you have done amazingly to keep a level clear head throughout. I do hope you can get back to breastfeeding your baby soon.

Do take note of quince2figs posts (3 so far I think) who as a consultant gynaecologist is very well informed and has given excellent advice

Go home OP and get the proper treatment you deserve.

for your recovery. xx

I had retained infected placenta after my first birth at the Portland, who shunted me off to A&E.

I had an ovary removed at the Portland and was admitted to the Royal Free after sepsis. The Royal Free saved my life and I had two of my babies there.

" You can’t keep dragging the one willing doctor in when they’re meant to be off duty-"

So then the rota needs sorting out so that this sort of situation doesn't arise.

Doesn’t this also make the case for clinics like BPAS & MSI to beef up their aftercare and put in place emergency provision?

I agree with this. Surely if it’s a failed TOP and the woman is stable, the clinic the woman went thorough should provide follow up care?

Op has said where for those who've missed

NORTH DEVON

"There are 2 doctors apparently here who will do it. But they are busy all day" unless they're busy dealing with abortion stuff (which I highly doubt) then why can't the Drs objecting to abortion swap duties with them?!

I too in your position would be asking even demanding they put their refusal to treat on religious grounds IN BRITAIN in writing including that they acknowledge they're increasing your medical risk, I'd be telling them if you do end up incurring illness or medical injury as a result you WILL be suing, also request the information on their complaints procedure, and start calling lawyers.

I'd also be strongly suggesting the press might be hearing from me!

Quite honestly I'd also be asking to speak to the consultant and higher if necessary as a matter of priority.

Fucking outraged on your behalf! Wtf! Denying a patient NECESSARY medical treatment on religious/moral grounds is UNACCEPTABLE!

Name and shame op maybe somebody in that hospital/health trust can help?

"I have no problem with people who are religious practicing medicine, but if your religion prevents you from caring for some gynae issues then you should not be working in OB/GYN." Totally agree!

"Anyone who CHOOSES to be an OB/GYN doctor knowing they won't care for women who need this treatment has suspicious motives, in my mind." Absolutely!!

I reckon time to go nuclear! Social media, formal complaint, press whatever it takes. SHOULDN'T be necessary in Britain in bloody 2019 though!!

Although at this point I'd be naming and shaming the particular hospital! I for one would be more than happy to contact on your behalf.

"These people don't give a shiny shit about actual babies - the lack of concern for the bf baby is absolutely vile. So clear that anti-abortion actually means anti-woman" appallingly accurate

"Time for the law to change.
No more opting out.
Treat all your patients, with severe consequences for your refusal. If you can't, become a dentist instead." Hear hear!

@fermerswife so sorry you went through that. Outrageous that we still have a part of the U.K. Treated differently! Utterly ridiculous!!

"and I say sue the bastards" me too! Amazing that often when their livelihood and money is threatened people like this (religious bigots) often "change their minds" or don't feel as strongly!

"Treatment has gone from bad to worse." Omfg!!

"They are saying I can go, but have no guarantee that I have a place booked for tomorrow" this is emotional blackmail wtf do they think they're playing at?!

Seriously if at all possible get a lawyer representing you asap!

Disgusting behaviour!!

"They will be christian or catholic where its against religious beliefs to terminate pregnancy" it's absolutely not just Christian/Catholics that object!

"If we stop allowing health professionals to have their own ethics, and morals, and make them simply slaves that do what the patient wants, and is legal, I think we'll be in trouble." Rubbish! Morals and bigotry are not the same thing!

"Bigglesworth you're not pro-life, you're pro-forced-birth. Be honest." Damn straight! And anti woman too. "No, I'm not pro-forced birth at all." Yes you are because that is the consequence of not providing abortions! "I'm pro choice." Only when it's your choice! But whether a patient continues a pregnancy or not isn't your choice to make!

"that the procedure was no longer urgent, which looks like an after-the-fact justification to me." Absolutely! It's a bullshit arse covering excuse!

"Put simply, because religion is a protected characteristic" there are legal exemptions for the equality act for lots of far less important reasons eg not being made to cast a male actor for a female character in a bloody film! No reason why this can't be done regarding which Hcps are recruited for certain areas of medical care.

"trainee doctors should be asked to confirm that they understand that by choosing gynaecology they will be faced with medical events that are currently entirely legal but which may conflict with their personal beliefs." These are intelligent well educated people they know exactly what they're doing! I'm with the pps saying that people who have religious/moral objections to abortion, contraception etc specifically going
into areas of medical care where they KNOW they will have to deal with such things have ULTERIOR MOTIVES in doing so! It's disgusting! And shouldn't be supported and those HCP's shouldn't be protected/supported in doing so.

"Unless of course it's an emergency, which you were considered as for a while, then down-graded as" to accommodate the hcps religious objections! I strongly believe that's what's happened.

Don't agree with abortion? Great don't have one! But if you're a hcp in this country where abortion is to all intents and purposes legal you have no right to enforce YOUR religion/morals onto patients!

I didn't see the objecting radiographer thread but did recently comment on a thread re pharmacists refusing to supply map and the same applies there.

DON'T AGREE WITH KEY ASPECTS OF A JOB - DON'T DO THAT JOB!

Several PPs have said that doctors should not choose obs and gynae as a specialty if they have religious objections to terminations.
However, gynae is not one blanket specialty. Many consultants wish to subspecialise into areas that have nothing to do with pregnancy or termination, eg gynae cancers, incontinence, prolapse surgery, infertility etc. They are only indirectly involved during their basic training, where their conscientious objection allows them to opt out and transfer cases to colleagues.
In most large hospitals, a willing colleague would be available on a daily basis, but in smaller ones the rota may be more problematic. The on call team in this case seem to feel that there is not a significant risk in waiting to the next day - the bleeding has slowed and there is no sign of sepsis. You can’t keep dragging the one willing doctor in when they’re meant to be off duty- that would only be justified in an emergency.