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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Categories that now contain their erstwhile opposites

30 replies

Mermoose · 25/06/2019 13:01

Updated by MNHQ with a tweaked version of the OP provided by @Mermoose. That's why the thread appears to go a bit peculiar halfway down.

It's argued that existence of people with DSDs (or intersex people) means that the female category now contains males, and vice versa.
There are two problems with this that I can see, the first being that DSDs don't literally make people 'intersex', they're conditions that affect male people and female people.
The second problem is that even if it were true that some people were neither male nor female but somewhere in between, that wouldn't support the idea that male people now belonged in the female category.
If we did this with sex, why not do it with other categories? I've decided to put together a list of other categories that, due to fuzziness at the edges, should now contain their erstwhile opposites. Feel free to add affected categories.

  • Green exists, therefore blue is also yellow

  • The exact moment of death is very hard to define - it used to be that when the heart stopped, you were dead, but now it's usually when your brain stops working. Dead people are now alive and vice versa

*Species. I mean, we just can't keep species as meaningful categories if we're getting rid of sex. This is Richard Dawkins:
"so-called ‘ring species’. The best-known case is herring gull versus lesser black-backed gull. In Britain these are clearly distinct species, quite different in colour. Anybody can tell them apart. But if you follow the population of herring gulls westward round the North Pole to North America, then via Alaska across Siberia and back to Europe again, you will notice a curious fact. The ‘herring gulls’ gradually become less and less like herring gulls and more and more like lesser black-backed gulls until it turns out that our European lesser black-backed gulls actually are the other end of a ring that started out as herring gulls. At every stage around the ring, the birds are sufficiently similar to their neighbours to interbreed with them. Until, that is, the ends of the continuum are reached, in Europe. At this point the herring gull and the lesser black-backed gull never interbreed, although they are linked by a continuous series of interbreeding colleagues all the way round the world."

OP posts:
Mermoose · 25/06/2019 13:22

Michelle Yes, I know. I was being facetious. This is the argument that is being used.

OP posts:
Michelleoftheresistance · 25/06/2019 13:20

But no, DSD does not mean the female category now contains males at all. Transgendered people are not people with DSD.

Mermoose · 25/06/2019 13:20

To be fair, I think most people could live their lives perfectly happy & well without knowing exactly how species are determined - not knowing that doesn't prevent them distinguishing a cat from a dog. Alice Roberts knows it, it didn't seem to help though.

OP posts:
Michelleoftheresistance · 25/06/2019 13:19

The thing is, when you look at categories that now contain their opposites, despite their being different categories, they always contain the exact same thing.

Women
Girls
Lesbians
Girl guides
Single sex spaces
I could go on. And on.

Goosefoot · 25/06/2019 13:12

Many people don't understand that "species" is something defined in the way we choose, or if they are told and understand it, that it doesn't therefore mean that it is made up. It seems difficult for many people to think in that way.

In my worse moments I sometimes think that the problem is that there are now many people like this who still manage to go to university and consider themselves educated. They no longer have street smarts or common sense but they really haven't got whatever might replace it.

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