Decision on abortion overturned at appeal

im really pleased. Im absolutely 100% pro choice. Im as vehemently opposed to forced abortion as much as forced birth.

The fact that she doesnt understand the impact of having a baby is neither here nor there. The fact is, she is pregnant, and I dont think a doctor would be able to forgive themselves forcing this procedure on a woman.

Right, outanabout

She still might not want an abortion even if she was pro-choice. No need to vilify prolifers when her own daughter didn't want an abortion and many prochoicers admit the previous ruling was insane and a violation oh human rights.

Earlywalker

I hope it wasn’t just a decision made because of her pro-life mother,

Do someone's wishes not count if they're pro-life?

It seems to happened in a foreign country so I don't know how much the police will be able to do

Sadly having read the full judgement I struggle to see a good outcome for this young woman. Though I think this was a better outcome than the original decision.

In general I worry about the rights of pregnant women with learning disabilities and/or mental health problems.

Frankly as relates to terminations, pregnancy and birth I feel from personal experience that articulate, well educated women struggle to make their wishes known to medical professionals so goodness knows what happens to vulnerable women.

I'm glad she wasn't forced to terminate. I hope she can somehow keep her baby with help, maybe the grandmother.
I hope there is an investigation into why someone who was judged incapable of having a baby because of her mental age (whatever that means) was having intercourse because it sounds to me like she's been targeted by a predator, although I might be wrong of course. It might have been a mutual relationship. I'm just saying it sounds to me that she's been had by a predator

To be honest it raised loads more questions in my mind. If anything I was left feeling even more sorry for the pregnant woman with learning disabilities after I had read it. It sounds an unusual upbringing.

It also seems really weird that the original judge decided one of the reasons it would be in her best interests to have an abortion would be because her mother might look after the baby and she might have to move out , given that she wasn't even living with her mother at the time of the hearing???

I have to say I agree with the argument by her mother's solicitor that to go against the wishes of a woman without capacity and order an abortion a higher threshold should be met. The same one that enables abortions to be carried out after 24 weeks e.g. compelling medical reasons.

But that wasn't what the appeal judges concluded. They felt that insufficient weight had been given to the wishes of the woman. And to her mother and to her social worker and to the opinion of the official solicitor who interviewed her. And that the medical evidence was only that 'on balance' the abortion would be better than continuing with the pregnancy. They also noted the difficulty of abortion at that stage of pregnancy which was something that came up on the original thread.

To me it seems that we need better safeguarding of the rights of women with learning disabilities and/or mental illnesses who are pregnant. I dont think their wishes should be overridden except under extreme circumstances.

It also sounds like there are problems with the system. It took 11 weeks from her mother noticing she was pregnant to the matter getting to court. There is obviously a massive difference between being 12 weeks pregnant and 23 weeks pregnant.

Thanks for the link, it cleared up a lot of questions.

Just posting a link to the judgement here so that people can read it if they wish.

www.judiciary.uk/judgments/re-ab-termination-of-pregnancy/

I think after reading this some of the things that were said on the original thread about the role of the social worker and official solicitor in the court of protection were incorrect.

The original decision was made on hypotheticals. Whether or not the woman would develop psychosis later in pregnancy (she hasn’t yet) and the likelihood of how she would react IF the baby needed to be taken into care.

The circumstances of conception are clear. She was raped

No. Not at all clear.
'Mental age' comparisons for adults with LD's are too simplistic. I know of many people with LD's who enjoy an active sex life, both men and women.

I hope it wasn’t just a decision made because of her pro-life mother, on the basis she doesn’t agree with abortion and actually was made in the woman’s best interests.
What a sad situation.

Poor baby, I hope they have the good sense to make a good decision about who will raise it well before she gives birth.

Thank goodness! The determination on the other thread to refer to 'a bunch of cells' and 'forcing her to give birth and give away her baby' were awful. If this woman knows she is pregnant and that pregnancy results in a baby, then she is likely to think an abortion killed her baby. What a horror that would be for her.

Terrible situation.

Glad the decision was reversed. A court-ordered abortion seems an extreme solution to what is a very distressing situation.

"circumstances of conception were unclear and the police investigation was continuing"

The circumstances of conception are clear. She was raped.

The lack of clarity is horrendous.

The sole focus has been the foetus and what happens to that.

She has a mental capacity of between 6 and 9 years old yet the media seem to be completely glossing over that.

She deserves better.

KTara, Carowiththegoodhair and DoYouRememberTheInnMiranda and others, excellent points.

If the referebxe yo eldeely man was to the judge, the judge is a woman.

sunkisses
Agreed, hopefully they will do DNA tests

I think forced termination is a very slippery slope.

I know nothing is ever black or white, but I always thought it was all about a woman's right to choose? Where does society draw the line in terms of mental incapacity?

I'm glad they listened to the woman, her family and her social worker.

22 weeks as well ffs. Imagine the absolute horror of being taken for an abortion against your will. At 22 weeks.

This is a sick mess all round.

The other key question remains... who raped this woman? I hope he is found and prosecuted

FakeUsername thanks, that's what I get for skim reading. Everything I'd (inadequately) read seemed to gloss over that which worried me.

Poor woman seems to have so many people speaking for her, her own voice is being lost.

That's great news. Forced termination is never acceptable under any reason. It actually saddens me that women on fwr actually argued in defence of it.

Wow, I feel this thread has a totally different tone from what I read on the first one (though I only read the early bits of that one).

I agree with the majority feeling here - the woman's feelings should not be disregarded here. Her and her mother's (assumed) feelings that this advanced pregnancy is a baby, not just a clump of cells, should be respected. There's no way we would insist that such an advanced (clearly wanted) pregnancy isn't really a baby, no way we would say that to a woman who had a distressing late miscarriage. To intervene and prevent something which would be the natural consequence against the wishes of those involved, however neuro typical or otherwise they might be, seems barbaric.

But I appreciate I am talking from a position of ignorance about all the facts in this case, and there might be many more complicating factors.

^dignity not dignified.

This was framed as a pro-life case and a religious case, which it obviously was to some extent.

But most people seemed to miss out that it was a savage attack on the rights and dignified of those with disabilities.

Those showboating their ‘professional’ knowledge in order to argue for the impeccability of the judge’s decision demonstrated how easy it is to dehumanise people and trample all over their rights, to commit atrocities in the name of compassion.