Is female impersonation/drag offensive?

@LimeKiwi

I've heard all the arguments for shutting down feminist debate and opinion. Why do you want to scrutinize it is a pretty anti feminist , thought stopping, point of view. We are allowed to analyze things in a feminist space. The thought police haven't reached here yet

Drag Queens usually DON'T, they still identify as men. It's just an act.

Their act is 'portraying a stereotyped version of a woman'.

Whether or not they are trans isn't really the issue here.

I'm going to go on a message board for people of Pakistani descent, and explain to them at length why the term Paki is completely acceptable
Yes because some women not finding drag offensive is the same as using widely recognised racial slurs and seeking out people who you think apply to them.

@LimeKiwi

Why do feminists scrutinize anything? Let's just pack up shop and go home shall we

Should be held up to greater scrutiny

Why though? You don't like. Lots do.
Why go down the road of "I don't like it so let's scrutinise it*
Comedy/entertainment is subjective.
Should we ban all acts deemed "offensive" by some, I mean there'd be nothing left!

I'm going to go on a message board for people of Pakistani descent, and explain to them at length why the term Paki is completely acceptable. Or an Irish message board, and explain why jokes about the Irish are hilarious, and it's just that the stupid Irish (ha ha, see what I did there?) have no sense of humour.

I think women have been willing to let drag queens slide as an issue, but now trans has highlighted the misogyny behind womanface I think drag queens should be held up to greater scrutiny

Why are they wearing clothes designed for women if they aren't pretending to be women?

Um... correct me if I'm wrong but the poster said people on here usually say they don't have a problem with men dressing as women if they don't say they are one.
Drag Queens usually DON'T, they still identify as men. It's just an act.
But you general you still seem to have a problem with it even if they "know"they're men.

@LimeKiwi

Yes but the "women are different and like different things " is an anti feminist point of view. Feel free to hate on feminists, feel free to declare you're not a feminist, but what you can't do is state that feminist theory -- which is a criticism of femininity and analysis of how femininity is rooted in our subordination- doesn't exist

Are the rest of us supposed to think this is OK then as some don't understand what's going on? It's a lack of comprehension

So this wasn't said then?
I'm not willfully misconstruing at all - it's like yes, some women like, but they don't understand what's going on and they lack comprehension.
It's incredibly patronising.
Women are different, like different things.
Not once have I said that you have to like drag queens, but the insults don't half come out for those who think differently.

If drag was just putting a dress on, it would be cross dressing. I don't think people would pay to go and see that personally.

Sadly I think a lot of the hate for it probably does also stem from a homophobic place.

How to re-frame the oppressed into the oppressor

Women object to being parodied, and magically we are the nasty hateful ones.

It always strikes me how anti feminist or non feminist views make it into a feminist space and then the feminists have to waste time explain feminist theory to people with mainstream opinions

Yeah not all feminists agree on everything but "teaching" feminists that femininity does not stem from our subordination is anti feminist and boring

isn't designed for a male body, it's made to be padded.

Because they are pretending to be women.

We live in a world where sewing machines exist. There is literally nothing stopping somebody providing or making a wider range of clothes for men.

@QueenOfAshes

"Womanface" is not a product of this thread. Feminists have been using it to refer to trans women's impersonations of us.

Why are they wearing clothes designed for women if they aren't pretending to be women? It's not as though they have to buy clothes off the peg from M&S. The clothes are specifically made for the act.
Clothes specifically made for drag are extortionate, so often drag queens will buy off the rack, those that do buy clothes designed for drag still end up with something that isn't designed for a male body, it's made to be padded.

Is 'womanface' a product of this thread or an actual thing people are going about saying elsewhere??

Yes, I take your point Earlywalker and I agree with the point made by that poster.

Wearing makeup to specifically feminise your male features while endorsing a sexist stereotype is the wrong way to wear make up.

Anyone wearing makeup or clothes to promote a harmful stereotype is wearing make-up and clothes the wrong way.

Drag Queens aren't pretending to be women though.

clothes designed for women generally don't look good or fit properly on a male body

Why are they wearing clothes designed for women if they aren't pretending to be women? It's not as though they have to buy clothes off the peg from M&S. The clothes are specifically made for the act.

There is a difference between a man who wears makeup to enhance and accentuate his own appearance and a man who wears makeup in an effort to 'feminise' his features. One is perfectly fine, the effect of the other is grotesque and insulting.One works with what mama nature gave him, the other seeks to recreate what nature gave us!

This was the post I was referring too, followed by images of men wearing makeup ‘the right way’

Drag queens don’t claim to be woman. Sadly I think a lot of the hate for it probably does also stem from a homophobic place.

Nobody cares if men wear make up or how they wear make up.
Maybe read the last page merry because you seemed to have missed some posts.

Will you give your explanation why you think that it's acceptable to pretend to be something you're not
Drag Queens aren't pretending to be women though. They are dressing in women's fashion/make-up for entertainment purposes, not trying to pass as women, or be included in things that specifically relate to women. They are taking the piss out themselves as much as they are of stupid stereotypes. The illusion of drag isn't so much to fool people into thinking they are female, it's transforming into someone who looks nothing like the stripped down version of you. I don't think the same motives can be said for blackface....

I want to explore why 'flamboyant' gay men feel the need (and the entitlement) to masquerade as women in order to feel the confidence they don't have when they are just themselves
This doesn't just apply to drag queens though, people in theatre often find a new confidence when they put on a mask, actors can tap into different parts of themselves when they adopt different roles, people with alternate personas too.

As far as fake breasts/hip pads etc are concerned, clothes designed for women generally don't look good or fit properly on a male body (even ones designed for drag) and there is already an increasing number of drag queens who don't pad or their style is more 'gender bending'.

I'm genuinely confused about how wearing make-up and being black can be seen as the same thing

Yes, you are confused.

Nobody cares if men wear make up or how they wear make up.

They care when men wear make up to portray a narrow stereotype. Drag Queens don't just wear make up, they change the appearance of their body shape to look more female.

As somebody pointed out up thread, the concept of drag enforces the idea that a man who is fabulous and flamboyant belongs on stage and can only be understood as somebody who is pretending to be female.