Correcting gender to sex on threads

Yawn😴

It is only in the past few decades that people have started to use the word gender when they mean sex. It has nothing whatsoever to do with prudishness.

It is part of the Queer Politics that took over university departments in 1980s as part of the back lash against Women's Liberation. ie Women's Studies were turned into Gender Studies.

This was an important step on the infiltration into social thinking that you can "choose" your identity. If you say choose your sex nearly everyone will now this isn't possible. But is you say choose your gender people are more open to this idea.

So from what started as just a slight change in language use then spread via students who graduated from this indoctrination into the media. (also for instance, the media now says "sex work" rather than prostitution to imply "choice").

But it was only when women started to realise that statistics, appropriate medical treatment, let alone the concept that women are discrimination against because of the sex they are born, that some of us started to realise what was going on.

Even if you believe gender identity is a feeling, rather than a social construct, it doesnot do away with the reality of biological sex.

The trans agenda unfortunately has now taken hold in such an embedded way that I have heard reports of "people" who get cervical cancer.

The fact that universities, the medical profession, political parties and the media have all crumpled to this entryist use of language is one of the reasons so many young children who have only grown up with the idea they are a gender not a sex, are so confused.

(One indication of how stupid and dangerous it is that the medical profession is going along with this emporer's new clothes reality is when a trans man in the US went to hospital as an emergency and no one could work out the pain described. Only for a few hours later for the trans man to give birth, because whatever their identity they were / are biologically female.)

I always cross out or dont answer forms that ask what gender are you.

By which I mean I would have taught my son to look out for how the world sends boys harmful messages and to be whatever kind of man he wanted to be even if it's not necessarily what society dictates.

Maybe because there is a difference! Certainly in terms of anatomy and nappy changing for starters.

boys and girls are different. Of course in many many ways they are exactly the same but let's not gaslight ourselves into thinking all women go through life having the exact same experiences and rights as men. They both are deserving of love and respect and equality but there are differences in male and female children that need addressed. The effects of how people interact with males and females start from birth, before even. Some of these are entirely justified and some of these are harmful. People talk to female children in a different way to make, they're pretty and love glitter and make up while boys are brave and adventurers. Girls get called bossy while boys are leaders. Boys are "good at maths and science" but it doesn't matter if a girl struggle with these, often the attitude is "they're not naturally good at those subjects so let's not push them". Girls are accepted if they wear clothing that goes against gender stereotypes but a boy in a skirt hits the headlines.

Boys have willy, a child friendly word to use for their genitals but girls have the anatomical descriptor vulva or a pseudonym of noo noo or flower. Boys and girls face different issues around potty training and growth. Girls are taught by society that body hair is wrong and that big breast are right while boys have to be tall and muscular. All of these things are part of why raising a male child is different to raising a female child. As a parent I feel it's my responsibility to protect and educate my daughter about how sexism occurs, how to recognise it and how to challenge it and fight against it. It is also my job as a parent to look after my daughter when she is having female based problems, and teach her about to be proud of who she is and to respect and tolerate others no matter how they are different or the same as she is.

Some of how I treated my daughter differently from day 1 (as you put it) was in order to protect and educate her against how the world treats women and the harmful messages she will be subjected to as a female child. I would have done exactly the same if my child had been a boy.

In terms of the OPs OP ... god yes I think I'm hyper aware now and am quite deliberate in its use especially when talking to DD.

I'm embarrassed to say having generally lived in a bubble most of my adult life in a bubble as things didn't affect me too much, this place has cast some serious sunlight on the shit that women and girls have to put up with from cradle to grave. I used gender for years when it was actually sex I was referring to.

I get that on the baby scan new mums are very excited and they also know they actually mean sex, we've just been conditioned over the years to do it.

But language, labels and names are so so important now especially. If we can get the balance right we can try and make sure that language isn't twisted and that woman will always = adult human female.

I'm not sure why you find another woman's experience so "puzzling" and "absurd" just because it doesn't tally up with yours?

Why should I not? Why does it make any difference that you are another woman? I find quite a lot of things that people do bizarre and absurd.

I think it's absurd because even before this new person is in the world you are looking for a difference. I don't see any difference in having a boy baby or a girl baby unless from day 1 you are going to treat them differently.

@LassOfFyvie my original comment was in response to the statement from the op:

I can only think that people want to know so that they can choose stereotypical clothes and toys and colour schemes for the bedroom.

I joined the thread to give an alternative view on why someone may chose to find out their child's sex during a scan. As said already I simply chose to take advantage of modern medicine in order to gather data about my impending child. I am fully aware that in the past people didn't find out from scans but that doesn't stop me from be allowed to discuss my more recent pregnancy any more than it should prevent you from discussing your experience from 1990.

I'm not sure why you find another woman's experience so "puzzling" and "absurd" just because it doesn't tally up with yours?

I have no idea (and have said as much already) what it is like for other people who don't find out until birth but I do know what it's like to carry a child and not know their sex because I obviously did that for half my pregnancy. We talked to it, we made plans for it, and we bought things for it. From the moment the test showed positive we loved it and were excited about our family's future.

There is a whole new unique person there- why it should make the slightest difference to bonding knowing in advance whether it is xy or xx is the bizarre bit.

The answer is right there in your question...knowing in advance. We wanted to know in advance, we found out, we were able to think and discuss important issue that may be important to raising a child of the sex we were told. For me it did matter whether it was a XX or XY, not because there was any preference not disappointment with our result but because having a female child IS different to having a male one (in my opinion).

If there was absolutely no difference in having a boy or a girl then is it so important? Why does it get announced at birth? Why is it one of the first thing you tell your friends and family? Why is there a special section of Mumsnet specifically for the discussion of women's rights and gender issues? Because the biological sex you are is a vitally important part of you as a person. Unless you chose to present yourself otherwise the sex you are dictates how society treats you, the language that is used around you, how you are educated, how you are treated by medical professions, how you are treated as an employee. It dictates what hormones are in your body, your susceptibility to certain illnesses, whether or not you can get pregnant, and if you create a child with another person your sex automatically determines whether or not you have automatic parental responsibility for that child. All of these thing play a part in parenting a child, from infancy to adulthood.

When my partner and I found out we were having a girl we both took some time to think about what that meant for our futures, child included. I am very glad I had the chance to go through that process before the birth because my birth child's birth was fucking terrible. I've seen/read on mn the joy women express about finding out the sex at birth, how finding out kept them strong and motivated, and the wonderful moments after birth etc. I don't think that's something I could have experienced, my life and my daughter's life was in danger. I had a emcs and the epidural only worked on one side of my body...I felt everything. Once my baby was out all I could think about was that now I could have more drugs to stop being in so much pain. I was so dazed I didn't know what to do when they brought her to show me so for some reason I sniffed her, then realised that I should give her a kiss. I didn't get to see or hold her for 45 min while I was being stitched up and then I was semi conscious for the next 12h. This experience traumatized me and I can imagine that not being able to fully enjoy the moment of finding out the sex on top of everything else that happened would have been another contributer to my pnd.

All of this, of course is just my experience (and my partner's). So far I have had one pregnancy and one child and this is how it happened and what choices we made. I don't believe I'm making any statements that suggest how other women think or feel or how they should conduct themselves.

It's interesting that on a thread about the importance of difference between sex and gender that fault has been found with someone wanting to learn the sex of their child. Strange that it's important enough to demand the use of the correct terminology but it's "absurd" for a woman to discuss the reasons why she found out the sex of her child during pregnancy! Amongst so much discussion about the erasure of women's identities and rights and the importance of language there's still the opportunity to find some stick to beat another women with.

You genuinely can’t see that buying gender specific paraphernalia isn’t the only reason people want to know the sex? Or is it just another excuse to be self righteous

I actually said nothing about buying gender specific paraphernalia but don't let that stop you making things up or making erroneous assumptions. That isn't the reason I found it bizarre and absurd.

I really don't care if you think I'm self- righteous I still find the idea that knowing the sex of your baby in utero helps bonding is absurd. There is a whole new unique person there- why it should make the slightest difference to bonding knowing in advance whether it is xy or xx is the bizarre bit.

I find this both absurd and puzzling. You do realise that until about the last 20 years almost no-one knew the sex of their baby? I was pregnant in 1990. The quality of scans identified something with a heart beat

By the same logic, it’s only within the last 15 years that NT screenings have been taking place. Before that they just took a blood test to check for Down syndrome. Should people not take advantage then of the advance in medicine and make their own choices without assumptions being made towards their motives? You genuinely can’t see that buying gender specific paraphernalia isn’t the only reason people want to know the sex? Or is it just another excuse to be self righteous

If you want to know I found out because I wanted to know a little bit about the person I was growing before I met them for the first time. We were then able to call them by the name we'd chosen and felt more bonded when they arrived than I think I might have done otherwise (although I don't actually know having only done it this way)

Personally it seems very strange not to find out the sex but I'm not about to make a) judgements on how someone else choses to carry out their pregnancy or b) sweeping generalisations about those who do thing differently to me

I find this both absurd and puzzling. You do realise that until about the last 20 years almost no-one knew the sex of their baby? I was pregnant in 1990. The quality of scans identified something with a heart beat.

The person doing my scan enthusiastically pointed out body parts. I just thought, I'll take your word for it- cos that could be anything"

Do you really think not knowing if that something was a boy or girl prevented bonding? Or prevented women talking to the baby? Or using a name? Many people used a made up funny name ( I bet there were a lot of Sprogs around or famous goal scorer for particularly active kicking babies) for as you put it "the little person. Person being the operative word.

I had an amniocentesis test and obviously the results of that will reveal the sex, if you want to know. I didn't.

When I had my scan, many years ago, I was told that if they can see the baby is a boy, it's almost certainly correct but if they can see the baby is a girl, there's a greater chance of being wrong.

I was expecting a girl but didn't know for sure, the only difference the sex made at birth was which name we gave the baby.

I actually think it’s round the other way - by waiting til birth to find out the sex of your baby, wanting the ‘suprise’, it’s actually attaching more importance to it.

I found out with mine - i wanted to know everything, I saw the heart chambers, lungs, bladder, brain, kidneys, with my second dd I saw her sucking her thumb! The genitals are just another part of the anatomy so if it really doesn’t matter that much what sex you’re having then why make it into a big deal by keeping it a secret?

@DtPeabodysLoosePants two of the most fundamental pieces of a person's identity is their name and their sex, the latter of which is so important that it causes discussion on threads such as this one. By finding out if I was having a boy or a girl I was able to know the sex of my child, and as a consequence be able to address them by one of the two names we had chosen. "It", "the baby", "the bump" became "her", "she", and "DD's name" and the concept that I was soon to be a mother became a little bit less abstract knowing I was going to have a "daughter" rather than just an as yet undefined child.

Knowing the sex of your child is so important it is literally one of the first things you get told after their birth, I simply chose to be told it 20 weeks earlier than if I hadn't found out during a scan. Personally, I can't stand not knowing things, if there's a riddle or maths problem and I can't crack it, it bugs the hell out of me until I know the answer, NOT finding out the sex of my baby when I had the chance wasn't something that ever appealed to me.

Finding out we were having a girl while I was pregnant made both of us think more deeply about our attitudes toward the different sexes and we had (and still do have) many discussions about how we wanted to parent our daughter. Dp was oblivious to the differences in children's clothes for boys and girls and was amazed at the pinkness of clothes aimed at girls once I pointed it out to him.

When I said, "I wanted to know a little bit about the person I was growing..." I was not implying that their sex would tell me about her favourite colour or if she would be good at Maths when she was older I was talking about how having a boy or a girl might affect our family dynamics, how we would parent them, and importantly how their biology would impact on potential medical and emotions issues throughout their lives. I think it is probably more accurate to say finding our the sex gave us the opportunity to know more about ourselves as people and future parents within the context of having a daughter (or a son if that had been the case).

DP (male) and I have conditions which have genetic links, mine is strongly influenced by female hormones whereas his condition presents very differently in boy compared to girls. Knowing our child's sex enabled us to have discussions about medical things relating to potential problems we may encounter in the future and talk about their anatomy in terms of nappy changing, hygiene, potential illnesses. Dp grew up with sisters so knew all about cystitis, thrush, periods, wiping front to back, etc, but having grown up in a house with no brothers, and from an early age no father, I am definitely lacking in knowledge about young boys and how to look after their genitals. Had our scan showed I was having a boy I would have been able to ask dp to help prepare me for looking after and toilet training someone with a penis.

Thinking about it know I can't think of any way that DP treats our child that is specific to her being a girl. I am a bit more active in discussing everyday sexism and empowerment for women (as much as you can to a 3-year-old). I am glad we had the chance to figure things out a little bit before having an actual baby to look after, that was overwhelming enough! My concept of the child I was going to have was developed during pregnancy, and probably further back to before we were even trying to get pregnant but every piece of information I got about her took me one step closer to meeting her in person.

My path to motherhood has been very deliberate. Dp and I planned when to get pregnant, we planned what names to give, we wanted to know as much information as we could before the birth and finding out the sex is all part of that and was just our personal preference. We are both scientifically minded so learning as much as we could when we could was just our natural way. Now that our dd is here it is up to her to guide us who she is and for us to listen to her.

Gender is sometimes used interchangeably with sex but not always: I just filled in a form that asked if I was male/female/transgender/or identify with some other gender. Why do they need to know this? It is even more frustrating on an equities monitoring form as they are obviously not monitoring their obligations to ensure no discrimination on the basis is sex.

@DtPeabodysLoosePants a lot of presumptions there in your posts about who might want to find out their baby's sex! How ridiculous. If you want to know I found out because I wanted to know a little bit about the person I was growing before I met them for the first time. We were then able to call them by the name we'd chosen and felt more bonded when they arrived than I think I might have done otherwise (although I don't actually know having only done it this way).

Personally it seems very strange not to find out the sex but I'm not about to make a) judgements on how someone else choses to carry out their pregnancy or b) sweeping generalisations about those who do thing differently to me.

There were no pink or blue rooms here, quite the opposite. We deliberately kept the baby's sex and chosen name a secret until birth in order to prevent friends and family buying "gendered" clothing. Since birth my DDs clothes have come from anywhere in the shops, not just the girls section. As someone with a PhD in a pure science subject I make sure to challenge any sex based stereotypes that my DD encounter, girls can be scientists and engineers and boys can be ballet dancers and nurses etc. I try to use balanced language towards her, so she is brave and clever not just beautiful or kind, and she has a toy workbench alongside her toy kitchen.

Finding out from a scan that I was having a DD actual made me feel more strongly about issues surrounding women's rights and identities. Although I'm still unsure how I feel about pink dinosaurs on dd's clothes? Are they good and inclusive or do they undermine the message of equality??

I am definitely one who crosses out gender and outs sex (unless the former is more appropriate).

It probably changed when people started writing “yes please” on forms that asked for sex

Love that theory.

@DtPeabodysLoosePants Oh my god I can't agree more! Why does it matter what genitals your child has?! It's so bizarre how people assign clothes, toys, activities and even colours according to the sex of their child.

I went for a booking scan last week, pleased to say that not one NHS form used the term gender.
Lots of people still asking me if I'll find out the gender though, I just scrunch my face, looking confused and make a point of saying, 'eh?' when they have to elaborate I chime in with 'oh you mean sex!!!' Have to admit to being both bored and boring in this repect

On threads where it is pointed out there's always some posters that get pissed off and say things like "We know what the OP meant" "pedantic, nit- picking" etc. All of which just underlines that people use sex and gender interchangeably, and that is the problem.

I had a procedure recently and was heartened to read the leaflet that referred to segregation by sex in recovery and waiting areas , then a massive facepalm when the front page had my name and "gender" on it.

It probably changed when people started writing “yes please” on forms that asked for sex

That reminds me of an incident that happened when I was in the sixth form back in the early 1980s.

There was a satirical school magazine put out two or three times a year by the sixth form and I remember that in one of them there was a profile of one of the teachers. With things like Hobbies, Teaching Style etc with amusing or jokey things for each one.

Anyway, when it came to Sex, the profile had "Twice daily."

I don't think anyone back then would even have thought of using gender.

Actually, as a result of that three boys ended up getting the cane.

Now before you think that this was some private school this was just a bog standard comprehensive (actually an ex-secondary modern). Corporal punishment in state schools carried on until 1986.