Liberated from what?

I noted that little gem too, DpWm - and thought the same as you, here we are in 2019 and we can boast that a grand total of 5 women held the most politically powerful positions a couple of years ago, well woopy do. Furthermore, how were those women treated by and judged against men?

The men suffer too/have it hard/I've been subjected to male violence is always trotted out and proves conclusively that they have no interest in feminism, what women want or what women say unless and until it includes men.

That seems like a good list Quentin

I'm guessing trebe has gone but I'm going to answer anyway because we haven't had a thread like this for ages and it makes a nice change from trans discussion.

Liberation from Male oppression:

1. full body autonomy - this means the right to abortion at any time a woman wants it because we trust women are adult humans that can make the best decision for them. It also means women can express their feelings about being touched and men automatically respect that and don't push boundaries.
2. The world is designed for women as much as men - men not assumed to be the default in medical trials, work practices designed round female biology as much as men, car crash tests undertaken on women dummies as well as men, etc etc
3. women round the world stop being ostracized and shamed for a natural bodily functioning I.e. menstruation
4. men stop requiring women have bits chopped off them or added to them to make them sexually valuable (FGM being the most severe example but also plastic surgery, waxing etc in western culture)
5. Men stop imprisoning and enslaving women into marriage and motherhood against their will. Whether that's kidnapping and forcibly "marrying" women like Boko Haram or whether its coercive control and building financial dependence as is the case in many many western marriages
6. womens work is valued and paid equally to mens work

Not all men do the things in these examples but all the things have been caused by men. It's unfair and oppressive, that's what I think women want to be liberated from.

And, for me, the other standout part, is how frequently this happens, and how every time it does the person thinks they are the first one to say it/ask it/express it that way.

Just like those divs who are always bleating "why isn't there a Man's Hour on radio four?"

Pricks.

@TescosFinest summed it up perfectly.

I know the thread is over now but I just wanted to highlight this gem

In the UK at one point in the past couple of years the 5 most politically powerful people in the UK were women

You heard it women. After millennia of men, hundreds of men at any given time being politically powerful, at one point in the UK we had 5 women.

Excellent.

Yep, they don’t need anything explained, because they have already figured it all out. At some level they may be vaguely aware that feminists have spent a long time thinking about and discussing these issues, but there is no comprehension there that this body of thought may be worth actually engaging with.

It’s always “I’m here to explain to you that actually, women choose to do the majority of care for young children and elderly parents, so that’s that issue all sorted out for you. Wait, why aren’t you gathered adoringly round my feet as I dispense wisdom? You’ll never get people on-side by laughing at me!”

I don't particularly want to get into the wage gap problem as its more mythical than anything else. Back in the day it was truer. I'm not saying it holds no truth but I think most people know how that statistic is used.

Well not so mythical for me, I am afraid. Here I am, a straight As, high achiever, Masters educated female ‘sat’ at home looking after my three children because my husband wouldn’t. Of course I could go to work full-time and forge a career I am capable of and deserve, but sadly it will mean compromising my children’s well-being as I have got no family support. I resent being reduced to a non-entity for the wider society and earning a pittance for my very part-time work that my family commitments will allow.

Take my DH, no degree, comfortably walked into an easy, well-paid role. Having three children has not in any way affected his hours, his ability to earn or go for promotion. Indeed, it added to his image as a well-respected father of three, a provider etc.

If I were to go back to work at some point, I will be thrown right back to the bottom of the ladder and will be competing with young, eager and childless 20-somethings. I will likely never reach my true earning potential as a result of childbearing, will have a reduced pension provision and will be hundreds of thousands of pounds poorer over my lifetime due to a very real opportunity cost.

So the gender pay gap may not be real to you, but it is very much so to me. All because men do not step up and do their fair share. And I am not prepared to throw my children under the bus to prove my feminist point.

Exactly. They come here to misogynise all over women. And then complain that women can't be arsed to let them.

But, they never want anything explained to them, do they?
They think they come here to show feminists wrong.

So good, so accurate, it bears repeating.

I am tickled, though - for lurkers who might be pondering why Herr Flick got such short shrift here, remember that you are under no obligation whatsoever to provide conversation for men, however much they protest they have good intentions and just want to learn, yada yada yada.

FWR is packed to the gunnels with intelligent women who have expended much time and effort explaining the machinations of a system stacked against women to other women. If a man was truly curious about these issues, he would display a passing familiarity with humility and not barge in with HIS VERY OWN THREAD asking HIS VERY IMPORTANT QUERY because HE prefers it when women expend further effort explaining feminism to a man who is already convinced he does more for feminism than the women here.

To which we say ...

Fuck that.

Floral, Once again, express is it beautifully.

And, for me, the other standout part, is how frequently this happens, and how every time it does the person thinks they are the first one to say it/ask it/express it that way.

I wonder if they truly believe that because they are not talking about , the attention seeking demand for women's time and effort, does not come across as wholly egocentric and entitled?

Because it's so utterly predictable, it's a little scary.

I don't particularly want to get into the wage gap problem as its more mythical than anything else

Errr... no, it isn't.

The "gender pay gap" describes the disparity in the lifetime earnings of educationally-comparable females compared to males, and is a phenomenon that primarily affects mothers, who have experienced periods of low to no earning in order to provide childcare.

It is not specifically about the claim that women get paid less than men for the same job, though that aspect also falls into the phenomenon.

One could be, however, forgiven for misunderstanding this as the msm constantly misrepresents the issue as being solely about, say, female BBC journalists being paid less than their male counterparts.

Oh, has he gone?

Never mind. Misogynists are like buses; there’ll be another one along shortly.

Oh, has he gone?

Liberal feminism is something to be liberated from.

Has trebe done a name change

You lost me at "attacking men", 2nd post.

But you've left. Good.

Is it wrong that I am beginning to feel fond of this one?

it's stockholm syndrome. fight it

I mean it's very instructive getting a live action demonstration of whiny male entitlement, but it's not what I come here for and I can see that sort of behaviour pretty much anywhere, so not really necessary here.

WOMEN, EXPLAIN!

Well, this that, other.

NO WOMAN, NOT TRUE. PLUS MEN SUFFER ALSO.

Well, why bother asking if yo....

SHUSH WOMAN I AM TRYING TO UNDERSTAND BUT YOU ARE ALL JUST BEING MEAN.

DanceLikeEmmaGoldman - Cheers! Yes Maya Forstater is brilliant.

Reveal, it's an education, isn't it? I consider FWR to have been a really important influence on my confidence levels in general, and that epiphany that I am within my rights to say a very blunt "No." to a man making a demand is definitely one of my favourite parts of the Radicalization Portal.

I used to be stuck in that part Female socialized/part polite English hell of never knowing how to deal with charming patter salesmen, on the street, on the phone, at the door. I can genuinely thank FWR for my ability, much admired and emulated by my daughters and their friends now, of saying a very assertive "No!" even if the buggers do make eye contact and ask me if I care about abandoned puppies.

Liberation? Knowing that you can say 'No' and move right along with your day is one of the most freeing things.

I'll even start it off. I believe that the liberation from the natural reproductive cycle is paramount to not just the liberation from that cycle but from poverty. I believe that effective contraception that a woman gets to choose to use has liberated countless people

There is much to celebrate in the reproductive cycle. And realising that can be liberating in itself. There can be great power and dignity in the female 'role'. As embodied human beings, our biology is still, to a large extent, our destiny. There is no escaping that. I personally don't see some futuristic, sexless, technological future to be that desirable at all.

As a 'planet' we humans need to move back towards the earth and live more in harmony with it.

I'd say that what we all want to be free from is unnecessarily constraining and inhibiting gender stereotypes.

Even though there are two sexes - we are all still individual human beings, with our own particular talents, skills and aptitudes.

In more 'primitive' societies people are very much confined to gendered roles, based o their biology alone - but that is impoverishing not just for those individuals, but for society as a whole.

I must admit, many years ago when I first visited FWR I did think ”how rude‘ at threads like these. The women just weren’t very nice.

Then I read some more, and some more again. And my eyes were opened. And I looked all the many many instances in my own life where a man did exactly as floral and others describe. And got cross. And stopped being fucking nice.

The truth will set you free. But first it will piss you off.

It’s interesting isnt it, whatis I’d love to know what it feel s like not to be prey. To not even have it on your radar that it happens.

The patriarchy hun x