A woman with mental age of 9 forced to have abortion

less traumatic and overall does less harm.

For who? On what basis?

Yes, I do think removing the baby is less traumatic and overall does less harm.

Are they being forced to have a termination?

No ,because they have capacity. Not only to make a choice about giving birth but to understand what will happen after and why.

You point actually proves that the decision was not "social" or about family stock or whatever else.

If the baby needs to be taken away from her, it needs to be taken away.

But the judge was acting in the interests of the woman with the intellectual disability, pouncer. She decided that for the vulnerable woman having a termination would be less traumatic than giving birth and then having the baby removed.

I’m not sure why you’re being drug addicts into this. Your argument was that “forcing a termination” on someone was not protecting them.

Do you think that a delivery followed by the removal of the baby is less traumatic?

It’s funny how those who seem to care so deeply about a fetus have so little regard for the welfare of those who have already been born.

Before I give up and go to sleep, let me say, for the umpteenth time:

THIS JUDGEMENT IS NOT ABOUT THE BABY. IT IS ABOUT THE WELFARE OF THE WOMAN. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE COUNTS IN THIS COURT.

So please stop making this a eugenics or unfit mother thread.

We have women currently pregnant now who are drug addicts, in terrible home situations, who will inevitably have their babies taken away from them. Are they being forced to have a termination?

Are they considered vulnerable adults? No? Then not comparable.

My colleague works exclusively on cases where babies and children are taken away from drug addicts and abusers. Often they know the entire pregnancy the baby will need to be removed once born because of the history or orders the mother can’t be around children. But the mother’s aren’t vulnerable adults and so are free to make their own medical decisions. The fetus doesn’t have personhood until they are born.

If the baby needs to be taken away from her, it needs to be taken away. We have women currently pregnant now who are drug addicts, in terrible home situations, who will inevitably have their babies taken away from them. Are they being forced to have a termination?

No. Because those women have capacity, and so understand what pregnancy and giving birth is. So they have no need of the Court of Protection

Which would you prefer? Have the woman with the intellectual disability give birth and then have the baby taken away or remove the woman from her home and her own mother?

Given that the baby would not be safe if she's present, both scenarios amount to the same thing. The baby's taken from her either way.

Grandma is choosing the baby over her daughter.

I don't think forcing a termination on someone is protecting them. Especially not a late term one!

Why was it so late term? What happened?
Why is it forced? No mental capacity so what's forced, the termination or the full-term birth. Which is forced and by who because the mother has no capacity.

Our feelings about this are not relevant because we have capacity.

If the baby needs to be taken away from her, it needs to be taken away. We have women currently pregnant now who are drug addicts, in terrible home situations, who will inevitably have their babies taken away from them. Are they being forced to have a termination?

I don't see the value in asking hypothetical questions about other scenarios.

Why not if they are all medical decisions and “traumatic medical procedures”? Is the difference the fetus?

I don't think forcing a termination on someone is protecting them. Especially not a late term one!

Which leaves 2 options in these circumstances pouncer, doesn’t it? Bearing in mind the woman is deemed to be unsafe around a baby. Which would you prefer? Have the woman with the intellectual disability give birth and then have the baby taken away or remove the woman from her home and her own mother?

I don't see the value in asking hypothetical questions about other scenarios.

I don't think forcing a termination on someone is protecting them. Especially not a late term one!

Why especially not a late term one? If the vulnerable adults wishes are to “have a baby” why does it matter if is 4 weeks along or 22?

Out of interest, when do you find abortion acceptable?

So you think that extremely vulnerable intellectually disabled women should go unprotected if they're pregnant, @PouncerDarling? Are there any other situations where you feel they should be denied objective rulings from the CoP and left to the whims and beliefs of others who do not have their welfare at heart??

Since my other hypotheticals about organ transplants or brain surgery were ignored, I am guessing it only matters where a fetus is involved.

I don't think forcing a termination on someone is protecting them. Especially not a late term one!

So you think that extremely vulnerable intellectually disabled women should go unprotected if they're pregnant, @PouncerDarling? Are there any other situations where you feel they should be denied objective rulings from the CoP and left to the whims and beliefs of others who do not have their welfare at heart??

The consequences of sex she does not have capacity.

And this is where I am also critical of the mother. In her carer capacity issues like contraception are her job.

Like giving birth? Have you even considered that a vulnerable woman with learning difficulties might be forced/pressured by the woman who raised her and cares her life, a woman who is strongly anti abortion, into giving birth?*

This. And I believe why COP has made this decision in part and a whole lot of other stuff as well on top.

I don't think vulnerable adults should be put in a situation where a court decides to forcibly abort their children, no.

Society shouldn't be making those decisions. Look back at examples throughout history and other cultures where women have had forced terminations, forced sterilisations, forced adoptions. Did those societies always get those decisions right? Is this a matter of unquestionable right? No, it isn't.

“Society” isn’t making this decision. The court is based on their authority to protect a vulnerable adult.

Do you think vulnerable adults should not have anyone to have authority to help them with decisions they can’t make due to capacity? Because that is an interesting stance, as someone who knows a few vulnerable adults.

It is simply not true that all abortions at this stage are necessarily painful and definitely not worse than childbirth at full term.

Yes, because most abortions at this stage are terminations for medical reasons, they tend to be highly traumatic for the mother. But that doesn't mean they have to be painful.

Depending on the mother's health and the actual developmental size of the baby, a number of different procedures are available.

I am fully aware from talking to women who have had this done to them, that some American abortion clinics use unnecessarily painful procedures. They often don't even know that other options are available. But we can manage pain extremely well for all manner of medical conditions and surgeries and injuries. In order to speed recovery and enable the patient to go home faster, it is very common to reduce pain relief fairly quickly where this doesn't slow down recovery. The opposite is also possible where this is better for the patient. It is therefore highly likely that this woman will made as comfortable as possible while she is in the hospital.

And I can understand why her mother was fighting to continue the pregnancy. This may well have been her only chance to have a grandchild. I think it's quite likely that I would have fought tooth and nail to secure that precious grandchild. That doesn't mean she doesn't love her daughter. It's just possible she wasn't in a good position to objectively weigh up what was in her daughter's best interests.

I feel desperately sad for all of them.