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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can someone explain...

58 replies

Wizbetisanizbet · 20/06/2019 07:33

Why this is transphobic? I believe that it was written by a transsexual person and seems quite sensible to me. The TRA's are kicking off on Twitter over it calling it Transphobic.

Can someone explain...
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AnyOldPrion · 20/06/2019 09:03

having it under the banner of "5 steps to eradicate transphobia" is hugely victim blaming

I read it as entirely tongue in cheek and aimed squarely at the militant TRAs who shout transphobia solely at women who understand biology, rather than at the people who genuinely are transphobic. Those TRAs are shouting loudest at present on Twitter and they are about as far from being victims as it’s possible to be.

Indeed, I would say they are a major cause of people objecting to self-ID and they certainly cause some women to be very wary of male transitioners. That isn’t transphobia by the way. It’s valid fear of angry male behaviour. So they are, in fact, a cause of what they designate transphobia, even though it isn’t.

LenizarLyublyu · 20/06/2019 09:02

Where?

Wizbetisanizbet · 20/06/2019 09:02

You contradict yourself

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LenizarLyublyu · 20/06/2019 09:01

LenizarLyublyu what are you on about?

Which part don't you understand?

Beingnicetomyself · 20/06/2019 09:00

@Wizbetisanizbet - What does a woman look like, walk like talk like and act like? Quite apart from the whole trans issue those words make me feel very disturbed, just from the POV of a woman.

LenizarLyublyu · 20/06/2019 09:00

As the poster says stop looking for something that isn't there.

I am gender critical. I do not believe that trans women are female or women, because to be a woman means being an adult human female. I do not believe in gender identites. Don't get me wrong, I am not on "their side" or whatever. The poster still doesn't sit right with me, and you asked for opinions.

DoYouThinkHeLikesMe · 20/06/2019 09:00

Why are you uncomfortable with the change starts with you paragraph? Genuinely curious as it's respectfully suggesting an attitude change towards others. I see far too much bile and hate from people who think it's acceptable to demonise women for not being on board with the TWAW.

Of course, it's never right to blame victims. But I'm thinking of all the times I've joined a group - a new workplace, a band, a choir, a friendship group... you do it slowly and carefully and mindfully.

You sit back, you observe the dynamics, you try to 'fit in' in the best way you can.

What you don't do is stride in and make demands and shout down people who've been in that group for years.

I mean, you can do that, and I've certainly seen it happen, but those people aren't welcomed into the group particularly and are often disliked.

I do agree with the comments about behaving like the gender you're wanting to join because it appears to reinforce strict boundaries stereotypes. But I suspect that what they are getting at is "if you want to be accepted into the group of 'women', then behaving like and angry, violent man ain't the way to do it.

I can see why people are objecting but, tbh, I suspect those same people would object however it were phrased.

Wizbetisanizbet · 20/06/2019 08:59

@LenizarLyublyu what are you on about?

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LenizarLyublyu · 20/06/2019 08:58

Be the gender you want to be - transphobic. how? Nobody can "be a gender" imo, it's societal expectation. I

Don't dress how you wish - transphobic. Telling anybody not to dress how they wish is wrong, trans or not.

Wizbetisanizbet · 20/06/2019 08:57

It is not blaming anyone. It is suggesting a way forward. As the poster says stop looking for something that isn't there. 🙄

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LenizarLyublyu · 20/06/2019 08:56

No, not everything is transphobic. But you are lumping all trans people into this same group. How do you think this poster comes across to a trans person who is not one of the "omg you have a period how tranphobic I am literally female", who is bullies and told they are disgusting for being trans? They just need to change their attitudes. It's not a good poster for the simple reason that it doesn't distinguish between these two groups.

LenizarLyublyu · 20/06/2019 08:53

The thing is though butch lesbians arent suing people, or threatening peope with baseball bats or wearing t shirts saying I kill terfs if mistaken for a man.

So this is just directed at that subsection of trans people is it? Because genuine transphobic does exist in the world, and this poster does place the blame of that onto all trans people.

DoYouThinkHeLikesMe · 20/06/2019 08:53

I think it's because the poster is really talking about 'transphobia' and not transphobia.

So the sort of 'transphobia' where women talk about having periods rather than the sort of of transphobia that means people end up in hospital or worse.

It's not a guide to avoid physical assault by violent homophobes etc which are awful but, thankfully, quite uncommon. It's a guide to enable people to live their lives without perceiving other people living their own lives as 'literal violence' towards them.

Wizbetisanizbet · 20/06/2019 08:52

Well I guess that everything is transphobic then isn't it @LenizarLyublyu?

Be the gender you want to be - transphobic.

Don't dress how you wish - transphobic.

Asking people not to use slurs when talking about women who disagreed with them - transphobic.

No wonder no one can find a way forward because everyone will find a problem instead of looking for a solution.

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SarahTancredi · 20/06/2019 08:52

The thing is though butch lesbians arent suing people, or threatening peope with baseball bats or wearing t shirts saying I kill terfs if mistaken for a man.

I dont think anyone should have to change anything about themselves at all to make people happy. They should do and wear what they like within the confines of the law.

However getting aggressive and threatening when people dont affirm something that isnt even remotely clear is a behaviour that needs to change.

LenizarLyublyu · 20/06/2019 08:50

"Change starts with you" could be seen as victim-blaming. Akin to "well if gay people weren't looking to be offended all the time, it would be fine! It's their fault they get upset about homophobia, they need to change"

LenizarLyublyu · 20/06/2019 08:48

"talk walk and act like the gender you believe yourself to be" is not only transphobic (because you wouldn't tell a woman that she has to look like a stereotypical woman would you?) but also promotes rigid gender roles. I don't think many butch lesbians would like being told that change starts with them and if they don't want lesbophobic abuse then they should just dress and act like society tells them.

Wizbetisanizbet · 20/06/2019 08:46

Why are you uncomfortable with the change starts with you paragraph? Genuinely curious as it's respectfully suggesting an attitude change towards others. I see far too much bile and hate from people who think it's acceptable to demonise women for not being on board with the TWAW.

It's not telling anyone what to do. It's advising others that if you wish to gain respect and understanding then you have to respect others points of view.

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CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/06/2019 08:37

I know it does . However the discrimination claimed is not because they are denied basic human legal rights. Its because they want ours.

This has nothing to do with the poster in question.

MangoesAreMyFavourite · 20/06/2019 08:34

Agree with PP. Completely victim blaming. Will remove transphobia (genuine) by 0%.
It's just another 'be nice' thing.

LizzieSiddal · 20/06/2019 08:20

It’s assuming Trans people are responsible for transphobia.
Trans people could do all of the things suggested and they could still encounter transphobia. It’s really not a nice message.

SarahTancredi · 20/06/2019 08:20

I know it does . However the discrimination claimed is not because they are denied basic human legal rights. Its because they want ours.

TacoLover · 20/06/2019 08:20

It is very victim blaming and if there was a similar leaflet advising how to eradicate sexism with that advice I would be massively pissed off.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/06/2019 08:18

I mean the law protects them from being fired because if their trans status

The law also gives the right to provide sex segregated spaces, and we know how well that's enforced.

Discrimination does happen regardless of the law.

SarahTancredi · 20/06/2019 08:13

It's their entire raison d'etre. It is absolutely not the fault of any trans or non conforming person of any kind when they are violently attacked or discriminated against
But are they? Really? I mean the law protects them from being fired because if their trans status . And statisticllay they are less likely to be killed than women. They are probably the safest demographic. Nore men and more women are killed by men than trans people. In this country anyway.

Dont feed into the poor oppressed little victim narrative. Took women years to earn the right to vote. They have had policies changed and police knocking on doors within weeks.

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