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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

(Sky News now) Stella Creasy is coming up against the biological basis of sexism

93 replies

RubberTreePlant · 18/06/2019 10:54

The irony.

I wonder whether the penny will drop?

OP posts:
DarkAtEndOfTunnel · 19/06/2019 21:41

I'm going to stop feeding this outright male propagandist shit now. Men in Britain are becoming ever more aggressive in defence of their total lack of ability or responsibility in the home and want everything their own way again.

Justhadathought · 19/06/2019 21:39

*I don't really see childrearing or even domestic work as being a slave to a man. I also think domestic work is going to become more important, so there's that too8

I agree! Domestic work has real value - even if it is not valued by many ( including some women). The main problem is economic dependency and the feelings of being trapped and dependent. But that doesn't negate the value or the importance of the role in real terms.

Justhadathought · 19/06/2019 21:35

Do women really overall want to share that kind of work equally with men, though? I don't think I've ever seen that question answered in a way that I thought was really satisfying

I agree with your sentiment. Often the woman, or the mother, 'hovers' over the male to make sure he's 'doing it right'. And he never is or can, of course......

DarkAtEndOfTunnel · 19/06/2019 21:27

exactly how you think

DarkAtEndOfTunnel · 19/06/2019 21:27

You seem to have an agenda of pushing women back into minding the homes and babies for nothing. That takes away economic power and makes women dependent on men, while men go back to their traditional position of power without responsibilities. I'm not sure exactly you think you can make that attractive.

Goosefoot · 19/06/2019 21:12

I am not sure why you would say working without pay makes you a slave. Most work isn't paid.

DarkAtEndOfTunnel · 19/06/2019 20:38

Domestic work does not pay, and I grew up in a household where my mother was a slave to my father. If you don't get pay for work, you are a slave. Women being trapped in domestic abuse by children and economics is on the increase again.

Goosefoot · 19/06/2019 20:32

Breastfeeding can last a while. Especially if you have more than one child.

I don't really see childrearing or even domestic work as being a slave to a man. I also think domestic work is going to become more important, so there's that too.

DarkAtEndOfTunnel · 19/06/2019 20:25

I would yes, once it's gone beyond breastfeeding. You'd have to ask other women. I see no benefit to being turned into a domestic slave to some man who thinks he is wonderful as a result. There is a problem around employment and wages.

Goosefoot · 19/06/2019 20:11

Do women really overall want to share that kind of work equally with men, though? I don't think I've ever seen that question answered in a way that I thought was really satisfying.

DarkAtEndOfTunnel · 19/06/2019 20:04

By male and female MPs I meant biological!
We have demolished local government in Britain, and all the interest in politics occurs at a national level with a top-down control attitude. People are speaking lately of an authoritarian wave sweeping round lately; it didn't come from nowhere. It has its roots in the lack of local democracy imo and destruction of the public sector.
I'm in favour of giving men and women both other options for looking after young children, along the lines of Finland's extended family benefits, not making women alone responsible. Britain's men need to shape up.

Goosefoot · 19/06/2019 18:08

It is a valid point, and it does again highlight the problem whereby women make all the sacrifices for child rearing and care in Britain. Those few months at the start are necessary and ought to be respected as such - because of that pesky biology Stella despises so much - but the rest are not. I also think that we need more MPs, not less, despite recent calls to reduce their numbers. Numbers of MPs haven't substantially changed since the 19th century when the population was so much lower than now, so no wonder their workload is increased and representation is reduced. I'd like to see two MPs for each constituency, one male and one female, as standard.

Overall many western countries seem to be going for less representation in that way. Here we've recently reduced the number of health boards, and totally replaced elected school boards with an executive position. It's why the idea of a locum bothers me so much.
Though it is weird because at the same time people have become very focused on things like referendums, constitutions, or elected second chambers, which can in different ways challenge representation although they seem like extensions of the public will.

I often feel at cross-purposes about the female representation in politics question. Generally I don't care if some types of work are female or male dominated, but I think in politics there needs to be balance. I also think that its a mistake to try and socially engineer women into work when their children are very small.

I sometimes think maybe in politics we should be electing elders anyway, who are able to take a longer view. I'd guess that would be a counter-cultural stance at the moment though, people seem to think the elders are trying to sell us all down the river and are out of touch. But it would mean the women in leadership would mostly not be mothers of smalls, they'd have finished that part of their lives.

EverardDigby · 19/06/2019 17:54

I'd like to see two MPs for each constituency, one male and one female, as standard.

What about the NBs? You'd end up like the Green Party with one non-man and one non-woman!

MrsJamin · 19/06/2019 16:46

This is the reason why mumsnet is the one place where people get the fact that you can't identify out of your biology or how you are treated because of your biology. A TW will never be met with suspicion on getting married at 30 and interviewed for a new role or promotion. Most women would be looked over in this instance because of being seen at major risk of pregnancy and maternity leave.

placemats · 19/06/2019 13:28

I'd like to see two MPs for each constituency, one male and one female, as standard.

That is an excellent idea Dark

IcedPurple · 19/06/2019 11:47

Stella, I'm all right Jack, Creasy is now realising that women, i.e. adult human females, now need help when on possible maternity leave,

I've noticed this a lot from people in the public eye, whether politicians, celebrities or journalists. They only sit up and notice an issue when it personally affects them. Then they get all indignant about "Why does nobody care about this?" when of course people do care, and have cared for a long time, but they just weren't arsed to listen because it didn't affect them.

Ereshkigal · 19/06/2019 10:12

I wish Stella the very best and deeply sympathise with her struggles with pregnancy and her miscarriages but that's some cognitive dissonance she's got going on.

DarkAtEndOfTunnel · 19/06/2019 10:04

I am not comfortable with the idea someone non-elected would be representing my constituency for a year.

It is a valid point, and it does again highlight the problem whereby women make all the sacrifices for child rearing and care in Britain. Those few months at the start are necessary and ought to be respected as such - because of that pesky biology Stella despises so much - but the rest are not.

I also think that we need more MPs, not less, despite recent calls to reduce their numbers. Numbers of MPs haven't substantially changed since the 19th century when the population was so much lower than now, so no wonder their workload is increased and representation is reduced. I'd like to see two MPs for each constituency, one male and one female, as standard.

Floisme · 19/06/2019 07:06

I'm going to bite my tongue and wait. I wish Stella Creasey luck and, if pregnancy, childbirth and motherhood make her realise that biology really does matter then I'm not going to carp. We need people to change their minds.

Ornery · 19/06/2019 03:47

It’s 12 months parental leave in Canada. My colleague took 6 months and then her partner did the same. Most people still take 12 mos mat leave though. Partners doing their share are not the norm, certainly in my experience.

Having watched Stella rip into people who had the temerity to complain about a wanking boy in the girls showers in a school, I fear this parenting lark is going to be more stressful than she is ready for. It’s lovely news though. I do hope it gives her a whole new appreciation for sex differences and the difficulties of prioritizing gender where sex would be more apposite.

Goosefoot · 19/06/2019 02:45

I think they should be looking at parental leave, not just maternity. Obviously women need leave to recover from giving birth, and for breastfeeding, but until men start taking leave to be a parent, a lot of people will end up seeing women as someone it's not worth voting for, the same as any workplace.

It would be parental leave in Canada, I think there is about twelve months and most of it can be taken by either parent.

I'm just not sure if I like the solution in this case though. I really don't care if its a man or woman taking the leave, I am not comfortable with the idea someone non-elected would be representing my constituency for a year. It seems like a small point maybe but it can be these kinds of small points that end up leading to larger changes, what does it mean if we say that sometimes it is ok to have unelected political representatives?

DarkAtEndOfTunnel · 18/06/2019 17:40

I've always thought of Stella Creasy as a representative of high middle class bubbles, over-entitled and over-privileged.

On this one I'm torn between applauding her for actually raising the problem, and giving her a good shake for not recognising that every woman in Britain faces this issue and always has. It's a common conflict whenever I come across these "highly articulate" media darlings.

EBearhug · 18/06/2019 17:21

Apparently the leave here in Canada is going to be 12 months, which is normal for all jobs but seems really long in terms of an MP elected for a four year term.

I think they should be looking at parental leave, not just maternity. Obviously women need leave to recover from giving birth, and for breastfeeding, but until men start taking leave to be a parent, a lot of people will end up seeing women as someone it's not worth voting for, the same as any workplace.

EBearhug · 18/06/2019 17:17

Yet it somehow seems taboo to talk about it.

The TUC's trying to change that.

www.tuc.org.uk/resource/supporting-working-women-through-menopause

Goosefoot · 18/06/2019 17:04

Jacinda Ardern took 6 weeks maternity leave as PM in New Zealand. Canadian MPs get maternity leave. Various EU countries offer MPs maternity leave. Different rules in different countries, but it's possible.

Right, I was thinking of something much longer. A period like 6 weeks could work, though I don't know that I think its actually an adequate leave for most mothers and babies. I wonder how much work the NZ PM actually did in the weeks after having her baby?
Apparently the leave here in Canada is going to be 12 months, which is normal for all jobs but seems really long in terms of an MP elected for a four year term.

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