Why can’t transgender lesbians just date each other?

There’s kinda a lot at worst prejudice and at best misinformation on this topic. i am a transexual and have been transitioning for four years, so I thought I would clarify a few aspects of my personal experiences (which may or may not accurately represent the experiences of others), regarding dating preferences, attraction, validation, anatomy and sexuality.

First, please keep in mind that, although women are beautiful, my preference is for men, and when I say men I mean both cisgender (men who were born with penises for those who don’t know the term) and some trans men (who were born with vaginas). I identified as bisexual prior to my transition and I guess maybe I still am to a degree, but I primarily date men and have limited experiences with women.

To the original post’s point— op, why don’t trans women date other trans women? They do. I know trans females who date other trans women. I’m hesitant to share numbers related to my “body count,” since transitioning but for educational purposes I will I guess. I have personally hooked up with I think five, which is equal to the number of cisgender women (women born with vaginas for those unfamiliar with the term) I have hooked up with since beginning my transition in 2018. Of the trans women, I’m not sure how many identified as lesbians rather than bi or pan, but at least one did.

of the cisgender women I hooked up with, I don’t believe any identified as lesbian. I think they all described themselves as pan, bi, or queer. I’m not typically socializing with lesbians, but cisgender lesbians have flirted with me and asked me out. Most lesbians expressing interest I found not to be my type and rest it just never really materialized (all women have beauty though, and I don’t particularly go for looks so much as behavior, intelligence and character). I also think women expressing interest in me might go out of their way to signal that they are open to women who transition.

as far as heterosexual men, they are attracted and flirt with me pretty constantly. Heterosexual men often are not aware of my trans status, however, and upon learning, their friends pointing it out, or me disclosing it, some -though not all- are no longer interested or switch their romantic inclinations into more booty call/fboy intentions. It can actually be somewhat dangerous for a man not to know, especially if they are with friends and feel embarrassed. I recently went on a date with a man who I thought knew and did not, and it was terrifying and I had to end the date. without getting into particulars, the number of men I have been intimate with who identified as heterosexual is many times higher than the females I have had moments with, and I have had a full and public relationship since 2018 with one who requested I hide my genitalia out of sight when we were intimate. Often purely hetero men do ask if I have had bottom surgery and when I tell them I am working on it but still preop, that is just too crazy for them and they opt out. That is their choice and I respect it.

as far as homosexual men, i hate to generalize about groups and have some beautiful friendships with gay cisgender men, but I would say this is the category I receive the least attention from, as well as the least kindness from. I saw some post talking about how a small percentage of gay men might sleep with a transexual as well as a post saying we are out “blowing truckers.”

For the record, this is a stereotype. I have an advanced degree and I teach professionally. I’m not a prostitute, although I have no anger towards sex workers and sex work is common in the trans community. I will not entertain a man who doesn’t proudly show me off or who is with me for the wrong reasons. And as far as gay men and trans, I do believe there are probably some gay men who wouldn’t exclude a preop trans from their dating pool for genital preference reasons, but in my experience the vast majority don’t respond with excitement to the general package of me because I look too female outside of having a penis, and they want people who look like actual men with more masculine traits.

do I need validation from people being attracted to me, and what they identify their sexuality as? No. I feel validation should come from oneself and god. I believe validation of a person’s identity to be a trap when it comes from outside sources, because it puts you into a situation where you require someone else and makes you a less powerful person. I do care what others think to a degree since I like to continue learning from others and I’m a social being, but I put it in a box where I don’t really care that much about what they think of me compared to what I think of myself. I like to keep my priorities this way. :-)

The major flaws I’m seeing in some of the responses on this board are as follows:

1. a lot of you seem to think that cis lesbians are a group that have uniform opinions on this issue. That’s not true in my experience, as some lesbians have been attracted and interested in me. They’ve told me this, and I don’t think your sexuality or ideas give you the right to tell them they are wrong or their sexuality is less real or valid for this reason. If it was, that would mean conversion therapy actually works, and I think we know it doesn’t.
2. a lot of you seem to think a transexual is an unattractive partner to the whole world. I am highly sexualized, and I would say about 80 percent of men I encounter express some signs of sexual interest (which I recognize since I didn’t used to get this level of attention prior to my transition). Whether or not they continue to prioritize me upon learning more about me speaks less to attraction and more to I guess prejudice, or really the way attraction is influenced by the “whole person” and details beyond just what someone looks like. I also find I’m sexualized to a degree by many other females, although it’s more split between those who praise my looks, those who exhibit signs of attraction, and those who are threatened by or fake with me
3. There is a lot of variation in terms of trans women. Trans women don’t all look the same, and to say otherwise is to stereotype a group based on physical features that aren’t always accurate. When I go to the store for example, men are trying to help me with my groceries or to pull a cart out and their wives are watching their husbands looking threatened like I turned their heads. Does this happen to “biological males” that people recognize as such? I don’t believe myself to have many characteristics of that particular biology except I’m still working on my bottom surgery. My neighbor’s son I found out the other day still doesn’t know I’m not a cis female, and he has been living here for two months. She has asked me not to talk about it around him because she is waiting until he is older to explain; I believe I am well on my road to a perfectly “normal and traditional” life if I want that. We don’t all look like men to a lot of people, but I wouldn’t care if I did most probably, and I’d still own my identity, it just isn’t the reality for me at this point. I have large hips, thighs, a big butt, C-cup breasts, and while my face has some androgynous features (truly androgynous, not masculine) and I’m a bit throaty, my skin, eyebrows, eyes, jawline, cheekbones are all perfectly feminine and all aspects are feminine enough that the majority of people men and women alike don’t know upon first meeting me, despite the fact that I only wear very light makeup (I spend about five minutes). I’m considered classically attractive by most people and have been asked many times if I model. to be honest, I have modeled and been scouted a couple times and told I have an “old Hollywood aesthetic” a few times. this isn’t to brag— I think a lot of beauty standards are unfair and harm women and based on western ideals and fatshaming and I only wish to share my experiences and have my perspective understood. If it bothers you that these facts seem to corroborate my identity or validity as a woman, I again want to stress to you that it isn’t about what other people think that validates me as a woman or a person, and it shouldn’t probably be for you, either, in my opinion.
4. I’m conjecturing but I think that trans women (I can’t speak for all), are probably frustrated that there are prejudiced cis females who deny that they could ever be attracted to a transexual female based solely on anatomy or biology. When we transition with the aid of estrogen, we to varying degrees take on characteristics that are definitionally attractive to lesbians. physical attraction works based off hormonal profiles and secondary sex characteristics which can be perfectly feminine or not following hormone treatments and other medical interventions. Most I’m guessing wouldnt argue they aren’t entitled to preferences to sex organs, and in many cases they may not be physically attracted to trans women, but it’s silly to assume that they wouldn’t be attracted to certain trans females. Whether they deem a transexual attractive upon learning of their status, however, again is an issue of the ideas brought to bear against our bodies as whole people, and some will refuse to own that attraction the same as hetero men who are initially attracted and then embarrassed or ashamed by that attraction. To generalize, which is always bad but can still be useful, I am aware cis lesbians have unique prejudices against trans women which I have read about or talked with lesbians about in the past, and these prejudices differ from the general prejudices of men (who fear having their masculinity threatened or questioned). Cis female lesbians, by contrast, sometimes have trauma regarding penises and are wary of anything that might be a type of conversion therapy in a society which demands their acquiescence to patriarchal values and that they turn into baby machines for these people with dicks they’re supposed to like, just for example. There’s more to it, there’s always more to it, because educations and people’s understandings are unique and individualized, but there are some general trends. I believe the rather large amount of discrimination against trans by cis lesbians outpaces the level of discrimination by cis heterosexual men in my experience and would imagine this likely translates into dating practices.

I hope this information is in some small way helpful. I was researching some things and stumbled on this thread and felt I would go out of way to type up this whole annoyingly long thing, which I usually wouldn’t bother doing. I just think every now and then it can be good to get a diversity of perspectives out there, and there are so few trans in the world that I don’t think there’s much honest representation about what it’s really like. If you read this much, thank you. I hope you have a wonderful day 💙💙💙

Nobody really finds it confusing or complicated.

With the exception of young lesbians who have been properly gaslighted, which sadly isn't hard to do in a society which is still homophobic and in which conversion therapy is still a thing, I find it hard to believe that the people who find it so opaque and complicated are in any good faith at all.

I just asked my two high school aged kids what a lesbian is and why they might not want to have sex with biological men. They thought it must be a trick question as it’s so obvious to them.

So I wonder why so many adults find this issue confusing and complicated.

My 15yo also asked why no one was hassling gay men to have sex with trans men. Which is an excellent point.

FlyingOink I compare transition to having a full face tattoo. Fine if you want to do it, just appreciate that it'll dramatically reduce your potential dating pool.

That "trans" kids are not being told this is downright cruel.

Fox and Goose can tell us all they like that we shouldn’t narrow down the definition of lesbian too tightly or people won’t take it seriously, but I can very much guarantee that they still will. Angela who used to be Andy is not going to get hit on by creepy straight blokes looking to score an extra power up, and Angela who used to be Andy is not going to get called an ugly dyke in the street, just for the offence of going about their business. Angela who used to be Andy might get called names in the street just for the offence of going about their business, but dyke will not be one of them, and if Angela who used to be Andy is unlucky enough to find a fist flying their way,it won’t be because the attacker thinks Angela who used to be Andy is a lesbian.

And lets face it, Angela who used to be Andy, who wants to sleep with a lesbian, is not going to try it on with Tammy who used to be Tommy, is they? Because Angela who used to be Andy, and Tammy who used to be Tommy, despite their insistence, know exactly what a lesbian is.

Lesbians know what a lesbian is, men know what a lesbian is, and men who identify as women and as lesbians know exactly what a lesbian is, for dating purposes only you understand.

if someone decides to have that done to themselves they need to understand that their pool of potential sexual partners is going to shrink considerably. Lesbians are not responsible for them making that decision and we won’t be held responsible for making up the shortfall
It should be mandatory for healthcare providers to ensure trans patients are made fully aware of all the risks of transition. From bone density issues with Lupron to heart problems with testosterone to the many revision surgeries needed on a neovaginoplasty to having a considerably reduced dating pool.
Straight men in particular who transition will be going from up to 50% of all people being a potential sexual partner to less than 3% of all people. In effect, allowing for personality and individual attractiveness, a straight man transitioning reduces his dating pool many times over. It could be less than one percent who would have sex with him, without even considering who he himself would find attractive.
If he was an incel when he was a straight man he's likely to be an incel as a transwoman. The only difference now is he can get men to have sex with him (which he probably could have done pre transition anyway).
So he's blowing truckers and being abusive to lesbians online, because his sense of entitlement wasn't matched by reality.

Anyone who says women who have sex with men, however those men identify, are lesbians is redefining the sexuality of countless trans widows, who are het women who entered a relationship with a man. Their DH may have transitioned but that doesn't turn the wives into lesbians.

Thanks Prawn for pointing this out.

I am becoming increasingly irritated at attempts to redefine the law and the language.
The Equality Act defines people who are gay or lesbian as those who are same sex attracted, and bisexual people as those who are attracted to both sexes.

There is nothing to be gained from tying down these definitions too closely, it isn't how language works

What? It's precisely how language works. The whole point of language is shared meaning.

A cup is not a bucket. An umbrella is not a hat. Words have defined meanings and the whole issue here is that when people muddy up definitions to make them more 'nice' and 'inclusive' and 'generalised' and 'generous' and other fluffy well intentioned stuff, they destroy the actual meaning of the word.

Which is why, because well intentioned people are trying to persuade lesbians that lesbian can mean lots of things and doesn't JUST mean women exclusively attracted to/in sexual relationships with women we now have people going 'so that means men can be lesbians'.

Please stop, you're helping the homophobia I'm having to live with.

It all comes down to the fact that toxic masculinity isn’t purchased in the mens’ clothing department, so one can’t expect the toxic masculinity to come off with the mens’ clothing.

I bloody love that.

...if you try and nail down words like this so tightly that you exclude anyone who ever strays from your strict definition.

Lesbians are women who are exclusively attracted to other women. They may have had sex with men in the past but as things stand it's women only.

Women who engage in sex with both sexes are bisexual or, if you prefer, pansexual.

These are descriptive terms. They have definitions. Anyone who says women who have sex with men, however those men identify, are lesbians is redefining the sexuality of countless trans widows, who are het women who entered a relationship with a man. Their DH may have transitioned but that doesn't turn the wives into lesbians.

...you are going to find people will not take your primary argument seriously.

Goosefoot, isn't the whole point that AWAs and their flying monkeys flatly refuse to accept the argument however it's framed?

You may not mean to, but you're appealing to female socialization: be nice, don't be outspoken and then the men are more likely to take you seriously.

Fuck that shit.

Goosefoot, whatever, mate. From your other posts, you don't actually seem to have a dog in the fight on this one, so I don't think I much care what your opinion of my 'primary argument' is. Words have meanings, lesbian means a same sex oriented woman, and I am about done with the tedious need to explain basic facts in response to people trying to obscure that, or people playing silly arse games for their own reasons.

Goosefoot, the term 'lesbian' is clearly defined. It does not mean 'anyone who feels that they are a woman and is attracted to anyone else who feels that they are a woman'.

That isn't at all what I said.

There is nothing to be gained from tying down these definitions too closely, it isn't how language works and it doesn't help make the point that a man insisting that he is a lesbian is stupid.

But if you try and nail down words like this so tightly that you exclude anyone who ever strays from your strict definition you are going to find people will not take your primary argument seriously. They will know of too many exceptions to your iron-clad criteria.

Men who identify as women are still men. Of course lesbians don't find them sexually attractive.

@Whatisthisfuckery really articulate and great post.

It all comes down to the fact that toxic masculinity isn’t purchased in the mens’ clothing department, so one can’t expect the toxic masculinity to come off with the mens’ clothing. It has always been the case that some heterosexual men have purposely hit on lesbians because bedding a lesbian is an extra achievement, so bags extra toxic masculinity points. So when the trousers come off and the dress goes on, the ‘look what a stud I am’ boast is replaced by ‘look what an irresistible woman I am.’ Otherwise the billions of straight women in the world would be a much better and safer bet if it was simply a relationship they were after. The added gaslighting of ‘well I am a woman, but you’re just transphobic’ is just another variation on the ‘well you’ve not had my dick yet, and my dick is special.’ Enticing lesbians into bed with the promise of a revelatory instant cure hasn’t worked so gaslighting and guilt tripping is the next predictable weapon in the boundary stomping, sexually abusive male’s armoury.

It’s quite interesting, and revealing to note, that plenty of lesbians go out with bisexual and even straight women. I have met plenty of lesbians who are in relationships with women who never thought of going with a woman before they met their current partner and vice versa. Last year I remember spending a drunken evening in Bournemouth chatting to a woman who had just married her female partner, but before they met she’d considered herself straight. There are a lot of lesbians who won’t go out with a woman unless she’s also a lesbian, but for many others the only qualification is that a potential partner is female, and labels aren’t relevant. The fact that some males who identify as lesbian just have to go out with a lesbian speaks more to their need for validation than it does for the fact that they want a partner.

The main reason some lesbians won’t go out with a bi woman is because they don’t like the idea of sleeping with a woman who sleeps with men, or that they might be left for a man. Considering that before a male started identifying as lesbian, they would have been hetero/bisexual, so only sleeping with women who had slept with other men before they started identifying as a woman is logical proof that their reasons certainly aren’t the same.

Sorry, I’m tip toeing around the truth so much that I’m getting confused. Maybe if we were allowed to use accurate language it wouldn’t be so bloody tortuous.

HQ I’m being as polite as possible. I hope you’re not going to delete the words of a lesbian speaking about what is happening to me and other lesbians yet again. Shame on you if you do, and homophobic of you as well.

A woman can date a transwoman if she's bisexual/pansexual.

But to me lesbianism is finding a female body especially sexual body parts, attractive.

If they are not present or male genitals are then to me that's not what a lesbian is.

That's nothing against trans people just what a true definition would be.

If you are a straight woman you may fancy a man who acts feminine but does not dress nor possess female anatomy. In this case she's straight.

Gendered behaviour is part of personality, not biology.

it comes across as a bit offensive to make a blanket statement about 'I wouldn't date anyone with the characteristic xxx'

I know PPs have addressed this so I won't say too much.

I can sort of see how someone would believe this in a 'let's all get along' kind of way, but it's that we hear this from people who would consider themselves allies to LGB people that is really shocking.

Seriously, engage your brains.

@2Rebecca
My lesbian friend tells me that her sex toys are used in a variety of places, and that using a condom means they can be moved from one to another without needing to clean them in-between.

Condoms on sex toys???

Everyone knows the answer to this, it's only four words: "because aren't women".
We live in a world where a truth that is clear to everyone is becoming increasingly unsayable.

I get your point OP. My thoughts would be that that would make them homosexual males and therefore would cause their brains to combust because in their minds they are women. Plus women should shut up and put up and do as men say.

. Surely if they have sex with a transwoman there is the risk of pregnancy and therefore they would need to use contraception (and no doubt condoms are triggering in some way). So yet again, the women have to give up something else and pump themselves full of hormones

On a grimly practical note, condoms are designed to be used on erect penises. If that man is taking hormone drugs, then his erections will not be as hard, his penis may have become smaller etc. So the condom is not reliable contraception.

So all those female-penis-inclusive lesbians will do well to consider other methods if they don't want to end up in The Sun as the first woman pregnant by another one

It's such a weird tactic though.

I mean, has anyone ever been leered at in the street and then thought "ooh yeah, my knickers are slipping off by themselves now some random has yelled at me from his van, let me catch up with him for rampant sex!"

And so goes it with this. It's just more maleness showing itself that their tactic to get women to sleep with them is to essentially catcall them, albeit with a different theme of "I'll guilt you into shagging me". What are the success rates likely to be?