Use of trans identified male as opposed to transwoman No2.

How many times is the dictionary definition of "woman" posted on MN?

It actually formed a campaign. It was insisted in many arguments that the dictionary definition of "woman" was what mattered and was what determined who was a woman and who wasn't.

Please explain to me then, how we now can't use that dictionary definition to describe a trans gender person?

How on earth can you justify that double standard?

On the one hand the dictionary definition is all that matters when it suits you and on the other the dictionary definition is wrong when it describes someone else?

Maybe if you are so dead set against using dictionary definitions you need to rethink the demand of using it when it comes to defining women?

In general where a crime is reported, the code requiring newspapers to not "misgender" means that the reports are very confusing.

A recent example: metro.co.uk/2019/05/10/woman-gets-hammer-row-disabled-bay-parking-outside-kfc-9487975/

It is vital, both on Mumsnet and elsewhere, that women are able to unequivocally state someone's sex.

Coercive control is a form of domestic violence. It is incredibly hard to get a conviction on it and is already stigmatised As being less important ‘but they didn’t beat you’

By degrading it to a word used to describe internet strangers who don’t agree with you is abhorrent and shows a disregard for woman imo.

As someone who’s also experienced it, the things I experienced were not in any way shape or form comparable with internet strangers (whom you can freely block or disengage) saying to use their preferred terminology.

Back to the issue of the practical consequences (adverse) of coerced language: does anyone remember "Lisa" Hauxwell on the run?

A dangerous multiple rapist that the police needed to warn the public not to approach?

What the police needed to be able to say was "this man, who occasionally dresses as a woman, but is currently believed to be in typically male clothing, is extremely dangerous and should not be approached."

What they had to say (see news coverage of the time) was "A woman, who may be dressed as a man..."

So the public were misled as to what this extremely dangerous, violent man would look like should they encounter him. In the context of a press release trying to warn them to look out for him and noting how dangerous he was.

This is absolutely fucking batshit.

(NB lest anyone report me for misgendering a convicted rapist who retains his penis, several years ago I was assured on a thread on here by Justine Roberts herself that we would not be forced to use female pronouns for sex offenders).

I try not to hold it against other women who call men women, or she, or pressurise other women to do the same.
But I think you cause immense hurt and damage to other women and girls by perpetuating the deception. It's grooming of a sort, and whilst I support everyone's right to make their own decisions I have little tolerance for those who would pressurise others to lie, pretend, deceive and confuse others - to spare themselves the discomfort of being labelled 'bigot'.
Men aren't women. Can never be. Boys can't be girls. Of any variety. The lie can't be contained whilst it is being nurtured.
And I believe that speaking clearly, passionately and with integrity, reason and conviction is the best way to help women, girls and also the children who are suggestible enough to throw their lives and health away because well-meaning but frightened people were scared to be seen as bigoted and so colluded with a lie - and they believed it.

All this.

And I have experienced coercive control, and the manipulation tactics used by transactivists are extremely reminiscent of it, so I'm going to keep using that term as well.

The people who keep using ‘coercive control’ need to do some research or maybe speak to some woman who have had their lives destroyed by it. If language is so important, stop minimising something that has a huge effect on many woman everyday and turning it into people who disagree with you. It is gaslighting in its finest form and is completely the wrong term.

Calling people trans woman is completely different from saying TWAW. The term trans woman doesn’t deny their biological sex is Male. Your excuse that you think people don’t know what it means, we don’t change words because some people might not understand them.

Discussions on Trans woman in female spaces is not changed by calling them transwoman.

Personally, I didn’t know what ‘trans identified male’ Meant before this but if I saw it discussed I would definitely think you were referring to Transmen.

I don't object to the term woman in transwoman because of how it makes me feel. I object to it because it gives the impression you are talking about a woman and thus that they should have full access to women's spaces.

As people have said before - note the difference.

The trans women were upset because they were denied entry to the women's changing room.

The men were upset because they were denied entry to the women's changing room.

2BthatUnnoticed thank you. It is nice to be able to discuss and understand even if we don't necessarily agree.

I do understand why people on this thread feel the way that they do. I simply have concerns about the consequences of the opinions raised.

to you too.

Women have to be twice as nice to get half as much. And no-one gives a toss if that has a negative effect on women. Because women don't really matter

That may be how you feel. It is not the fact of my argument though. I do very much give a toss how it makes all women feel. But, we cannot say "facts not feels" when it suits us and be seen as anything other than hypocrites if we don't follow thst approach ourselves.

Am I willing to run the risk of losing sex segregated spaces because of the feelings of some trans people? No.

Am I willing to risk losing them because of the feelings of some natal women? No.

And I am concerned that we risk losing those spaces, by losing public sympathy, by refusing to use the term trans woman.

I understand too.

Women have to be twice as nice to get half as much. And no-one gives a toss if that has a negative effect on women. Because women don't really matter. The only way to retain what we already have is to ask, when told to jump, 'how high' ?

Sue I hear you.

Sue glad you’ve stayed, I agree we are in real danger of losing female spaces - so many of us are fighting to keep them, even if they use different approaches.

I understand where OP is coming from. On this board (more heavily scrutinised and than any other I post on) I use transgender woman, transwoman or TW. I recognise that trans people can and do reject those terms, just as I reject those they use for me.

And now I really am going, as this thread is just upsetting and frustrating. Using someone's preferred term isn't the same as believing that someone can change sex.

I am not on the side of TRAs or attempting to gaslight anybody. I simply have a different view on the use of this particular terminology. And worry that refusal to use it could be unfairly weaponised against us. When in fact the term "trans woman" is perfectly clear, with a minimal qualifying explanation, that an eight year old can understand.

Objecting to the use of the word "woman" in "trans woman" because of how it makes us feel, is playing right into the hands of TRAs who will take us apart for hypocrisy after we have said "facts before feelz".

The dictionary definitions quoted on the previous thread were facts. We surely now cannot refuse to use facts just because it doesn't suit?

Calling someone who was born a male and now identifies as a woman a "trans woman" isnt lying. It is obvious by the trans prefix that the person isn't a natal woman. It is using the dictionary definition of trans woman, which was quoted extensively on the previous thread.

To want to continue to use this terminology, does not mean that I believe people can change sex, nor does it mean I am lying. It is not colluding against facts in any way, shape or form. It is using a term which is recognised in the dictionary. That is all.

If a person wants to use the term "trans man" to describe themselves, as they hate the term "woman" and live as a man, then it is not denying biology to use the term "trans man". We KNOW they were born women. No one here has argued otherwise. The "trans" prefix will always indicate the biological reality.

If they dropped the "trans" part, then that would be obfuscation and lying, and I would totally agree with you. But the trans prefix is precisely the point.

SuePerbly you sound like a great Mum and your daughter is very wise. Your views sound perfectly reasonable to me - we don’t all have to agree on everything to find common ground. Input like yours is valuable IMO so please don’t go away

To me, female spaces is the key, and I think that’s something we share. I welcome any discussion, with anyone, about how to achieve that.

This is more for lurkers (not Sue), to give some context. In putting the case to retain some female spaces (while saying TWAW), my sisters and I have variously been called:

• fucking c*nt
• ngro bitch, niger
• fucking sicko with a creepy genital obsession
• “you’re a minority woman so should support TW” (we do, but also believe we still need female spaces)
• “TWAW like black women are women - support us or STFU”
• TW don’t want to fuck terfs you dumb bitch, why do transphobes have these weird rape fantasies (!?)
• no one wants to fucking rape you ugly black c*nt, TW just want to shower not see your saggy tits

I don’t have the power or privilege to stop anyone from using these words.

And yet, the same TRAs that use that language, leverage their power and privilege to prevent us from saying “male.”

I believe we can all live in peace together. I certainly don’t want TW to cease to exist (those I know irl are lovely btw). But I also believe we need female spaces.

Sue, I think you're wrong.
I think pretending, and capitulating, and appeasing, and caring about the opinions of those who already hate you, plunges everyone further into the mire and accelerates us towards the conclusion that everyone agrees that 'woman' is just a label that both sexes can wear.

I try not to hold it against other women who call men women, or she, or pressurise other women to do the same.
But I think you cause immense hurt and damage to other women and girls by perpetuating the deception. It's grooming of a sort, and whilst I support everyone's right to make their own decisions I have little tolerance for those who would pressurise others to lie, pretend, deceive and confuse others - to spare themselves the discomfort of being labelled 'bigot'.
Men aren't women. Can never be. Boys can't be girls. Of any variety. The lie can't be contained whilst it is being nurtured.
And I believe that speaking clearly, passionately and with integrity, reason and conviction is the best way to help women, girls and also the children who are suggestible enough to throw their lives and health away because well-meaning but frightened people were scared to be seen as bigoted and so colluded with a lie - and they believed it.

I owe my children the absolute truth and I will never confuse them by pretending that there's a way for men to be women, or worse, that you have to lie to get people to like you.

...women also won votes for men they hated them so much

Women didnt the vote this way, and they did get the vote. Its good they werent cowed into dumbing down their voices by the MRAs of the time.

Sue, I can't play the game. I played it with an abuser for twenty years, and it actually endangers my recovery from that being forced to play it again in these circumstances.

It screws with my mental health every single time someone tells me I am supposed to consider my son my daughter. It's nothing more than gaslighting. I can honor my son's identification with femininity while retaining a grasp on reality and sanity by also observing his sex. He is (currently) a male who wishes to adopt femininity.

Every time I am told to put the space between trans and women, it messes with my head. It's telling me to lie. Lie and be nice.

I appreciate you are talking about strategy, but what happens when we can't play the game ? Does anyone speak up for us ?

Night and nice talking with you

the raft is the ordinary person in the street.

They are not rewards for being good. Nasty, mean women deserve limited same-sex provision, ordinary women who are sometimes stroppy and sometimes lovely deserve it, and good as gold women deserve it

Sorry, I just saw what you wrote. I agree wholeheartedly with you. That would be wonderful. But we live in a world where we are oppressed and abused. Repeatedly. Where we are dismissed as being "harridans". Where if we show even a sniff of bigotry, we will lose everything. I don't like it, you don't like it. It is more than sad, it is fucking criminal.

But it is also reality.

We have to play the cards that have been dealt, despite knowing the rules are unfair, and with our ultimate aim to be not having to play the game at all, long term.

I am interested in the reality of how we get to a point where we don't have to play the game. And we do that by getting as much support from wider society as possible.

We cannot afford to alienate people who aren't already on our side. The ones that are already on our side we don't have to worry about. But saying "fuck it, who cares if they think we are bigots" will lose us support from people who can potentially help us.

It shouldn't be the case, but it is. We all know that. We don't live in an ideal world yet. That's why feminism is still needed!